Dealers flooding review sites with fake user reviews

[ddavis]

Not a joke at all and extremely relevant...

If you've followed this reviews arms race for some folks it's all about indexed content...ie quantity, quantity, quantity. More reviews = improved positioning on the SERPS / more marketing material. Good Lord, we have dealers paying Review Boost to load fake reviews, we have dealers buying Ipads and trying to get customers to write reviews before they even take delivery, hell, some are trying to get reviews before they go to F&I. Do you honestly believe that has a flippin' thing to do with the customer experience? It has EVERYTHING to do with tallying another review for marketing or SEO purposes. When you remove 40 from the same store in a single day it gets their attention rather quickly, I promise.

Yes, we do blacklist the stores that are serial abusers, but thankfully we don't have to do that often. I'd always prefer to educate than embarrass.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Yago. Take a stab at how much content we've pulled down in 6 months. If we were interested in the "content for content's sake" game that Google is playing with the Place page right now we wouldn't pull anything. The integrity of the data and its source is going to continue to be a very big deal to consumers. Not enforcing your own TOU is not a long-term strategy for a review site that expects to be relevant.

Ryan, If they were willing, DealerRater could stop it. Pulling down "content" is a joke. I know one large group is using a Reputation Management company and they probably got a group rate from that company and DealerRater.

It will only take one news cycle for customers to know that this is happening and all the review sites will have very little credibility. Just picture a 15 minute piece on 20-20. Remember Food Lion or the Audi's sudden acceleration issue? Dealerships are lightning rods for bad news.

 

[ryan.leslie]

Need to make a quick clarification on my game:

While calling the office and asking is resourceful, it is also cheating... Take a guess!

 

[bzweifel]

Need to make a quick clarification on my game:

While calling the office and asking is resourceful, it is also cheating... Take a guess!

 

[ryan.leslie]

@Ryan Leslie @DealerRater
I understand yours is a paid service but...

1) Does Dealer Rater have any way to verify that the individual posting a complaint or positive review did in fact purchase a car or utilized a dealership's service?

2) If I am a dealership and a person posts something negative about my business, why do I have to pay your service to respond? Wouldn't you want my side of the story with out forcing me to pay to tell it?

I'll make this so simple for Dealer Rater:

Dealer Rater can make their service infinitely better if they took a feed of dealership CSI from the manufacturers instead of, or in conjunction with allowing individual posts. Many of the individual posters have their own agendas and post reviews well after the time of sale or service (if in fact a sale or service took place at all). By using Manufacturer CSI it would help confirm the authenticity of the review good or bad, and that the "reviewer" did in fact purchase a car or service from the dealership confirmed VIA the manufacturer.

Have A Great Day!

Jeffrey, Not sure how I missed this earlier. I don't believe this posted until recently even though it is time stamped at 7 am.

1) If you really blow it before I get to the point of purchase, say you are running a crazy loss leader that you don't even have on the lot and then you are extremely rude when you can't switch me does that make my negative review of your store somehow invalid because I didn't buy from you? Different side of the same coin, I come in for service but the writer quickly identifies my problem as trivial during the walk and repairs it for me in the drive so there is no R.O. Is my glowing positive review invalid? The argument you are trying to make here is simply not logical. The worst experiences terminate well before a sale and the best reviews often originate from a dealer going above and beyond to earn customers for life because they understand the quick buck isn't the best buck.

2) You don't! That said, some of the most damaging content out there isn't the negative reviews, it's the defensive responses to negative reviews from dealers with this type of access.

While we are always improving our offerings this isn't all that simple and really isn't a direction I expect to see us going any time soon. We aren't having any difficulty getting content from reviewers that want to share their experiences both positive and negative.

 

[Dan Rudd]

While as a company we do not believe in gaming the systems in place for reviews I understand why some dealers have chosen to seek out companies that will either create fake reviews or post them on behalf of a dealer on Yelp, Google or Dealer Rater ect...

The playing field is unfair especially with sites like Ripoffreprt and Pissedconsumer.

Even Yelp seems to be be biased toward negative reviews. I know many dealers who are over-all very upstanding customer centered dealers, who still look terrible on some of those sites.........particularly if they are not paying for advetising or a certain level of account.

At the last DD we sat in a conference room at one of the sessions and listened to a representative from Yelp dodge question after question on why customers who were legitmately happy with the dealer, even with yelp accounts had their posative reviews filtered while someone with 0 friends and a first time 2 star review was not.

He ducked and dived and even at one point and I quote ...."We discourage asking customers for revirews. It should happen organically"......What?..... Don't ask for reviews?..... When 90% of the people that leave reviews on line are in general the 10% that can never be pleased. However when someone is happy enough to take the time to set up an account to leave you a posative review it gets filltered?

Sites like Yelp, Insider pages, Dealer Rater and City Serach are using Your name to SEO their sites.

Someone call me out if I am wrong.......but I believe if you look at the TOU on those sites, they own those reviews. You can pay them to be able to use them elsewhere if you are subscribed. If you aren't and you are using them elswhere they can make you take them down.

Now lets look at the other angle. Are they really interested in providing the consumer with an accurate interpetation of your Dealership? What drives their revenue?

Two things.

Paid Subscriptions for your proposed lead potential and Advertising. And adverising for who?.... That's right.....Your competitors.

At one point I even saw on one of these sites who will remain nameless, a dealer who was not subscribed to their service. When you searched for them their "Free" page came up with reviews that had been written about them.

Guess what was right smack in the middle of their "Free" page? A huge banner ad for their nearest competitor, and I am talking Make specific.

This is exactly why POD exisits and why the dealers who are understand it and are spending the money and or the resources to employ it are on the right track rather than hiring a blackhat based company to provide a service that in the long run will fail.

Own your name. Don't let someone else profit from it.

 

[Jeffrey Tognetti]

Hello Ryan,

I appreciate the input and would like to take this a little bit further. To do that I have excerpted your post and kept your text in black and have replied under it in blue below:

1) If you really blow it before I get to the point of purchase, say you are running a crazy loss leader that you don't even have on the lot and then you are extremely rude when you can't switch me does that make my negative review of your store somehow invalid because I didn't buy from you? Different side of the same coin, I come in for service but the writer quickly identifies my problem as trivial during the walk and repairs it for me in the drive so there is no R.O. Is my glowing positive review invalid? The argument you are trying to make here is simply not logical.

I would almost agree but for Dealer Rater's model and counterpoints that are detailed here. The Dealer Rater model allows Dealers an exorbitant amount of time IF THEY ARE A PAYING client to "negotiate" with the prospective buyer so they don't leave the bad review. Isn't that pay to play? And..how many reviews like this ever see the light of day if I am a paying Dealer Rater client? I am sure it is a small percentage. Further, if a dealer is engaging in a "bait and switch" scheme, won't their other reviews that relate to actual purchases reflect the dealers poor conduct? This isn't bad service at a restaurant, this is a major purchase and the parameters of how reviews are posted should be measured accordingly. Perhaps some sort of verification system like a purchase order, receipt or again manufacturer CSI should be a criteria that applies to the weighting and credibility of a review. Basically, if you want Dealer Rater or any "Rating Site" to have substance why not do what eBay and Amazon do? Only allow people with proof of purchase to review a product or service purchase. Or at the very least "weight" an actual purchase or service higher then someone saying "I did not like a salesman's cologne" The argument is very logical, and it is not just my argument, look again at Amazon and eBay, they don't let people with no proof of interaction review a product or service and nor do car manufacturers. The only reason why Dealer Raters engages in a "anyone can post a review" model is so that dealers have to sign up, pay a fee to guard their reputation from posts that sometimes have no substance and should never have been allowed.

The worst experiences terminate well before a sale and the best reviews often originate from a dealer going above and beyond to earn customers for life because they understand the quick buck isn't the best buck.

I don't agree with this statement either. Most complaints come when a salesman promises things to get a sale that are not delivered. For example, in reading many reviews over the course of time you would be shocked to see how many people reference that they didn't receive an extra key, books, navi discs or were not properly educated on the fine points of the car they purchased. I think those reviews are fair because at least you know they purchased.

2) You don't! That said, some of the most damaging content out there isn't the negative reviews, it's the defensive responses to negative reviews from dealers with this type of access.

You don't? If no one needed to respond to a negative review left on Dealer Rater you wouldn't have a job at Dealer Rater as it would not exist. The "You don't" is an illogical statement. So, yes, yes you do need to pay to play in the Dealer Rater game.

As for the following excerpt I am perplexed;
"Some of the most damaging content out there isn't the negative reviews, it's the defensive responses to negative reviews from dealers with this type of access."
Are you saying that people shouldn't use Dealer Rater to respond, or even at all? Maybe I misread that. Maybe you are saying that when dealers respond they put their proverbial "foot in their mouth". Wouldn't that then justify an articulate honest response? Doesn't it then make sense to hire a company to carefully craft responses after working with the dealer client who had received a negative complaint to tell their side, or express regret and a remedy? PR is a necessary evil because people and competitive businesses often have their own agenda. I can't tell you how many clients come to us and tell us their side of a "review" that is markedly different from what had been posted by people who often hadn't purchased a car or service.
Case and point; We have seen "people" way upside down on their trade-ins not get the dollar amount they expected leave terrible review when they hadn't purchased. But what wasn't disclosed in their review was they were basing their cars value on "Edmunds Full Retail Value", when they should have been using "Edmunds Trade In Value" and they failed to mention the 3 accidents on the Carfax report. Should a dealer leave such a review un-responded to?
What about people who leverage the threat of a "bad rating" to get a better deal, Or former employees of a specific dealer post fictitious reviews about a fictitious purchase to slant consumers against their former boss because they feel that their pay plan was off. There are 3 sides to every story, yours, theirs and the truth, but to not respond in a competent, well thought out, fact laden way to a negative review would be tantamount to allowing your reputation to be slandered and accepting character assassination.

I welcome your follow up.

 

[yagoparamo]

While as a company we do not believe in gaming the systems in place for reviews I understand why some dealers have chosen to seek out companies that will either create fake reviews or post them on behalf of a dealer on Yelp, Google or Dealer Rater ect...

The playing field is unfair especially with sites like Ripoffreprt and Pissedconsumer.

Even Yelp seems to be be biased toward negative reviews. I know many dealers who are over-all very upstanding customer centered dealers, who still look terrible on some of those sites.........particularly if they are not paying for advetising or a certain level of account.

At the last DD we sat in a conference room at one of the sessions and listened to a representative from Yelp dodge question after question on why customers who were legitmately happy with the dealer, even with yelp accounts had their posative reviews filtered while someone with 0 friends and a first time 2 star review was not.

He ducked and dived and even at one point and I quote ...."We discourage asking customers for revirews. It should happen organically"......What?..... Don't ask for reviews?..... When 90% of the people that leave reviews on line are in general the 10% that can never be pleased. However when someone is happy enough to take the time to set up an account to leave you a posative review it gets filltered?

Sites like Yelp, Insider pages, Dealer Rater and City Serach are using Your name to SEO their sites.

Someone call me out if I am wrong.......but I believe if you look at the TOU on those sites, they own those reviews. You can pay them to be able to use them elsewhere if you are subscribed. If you aren't and you are using them elswhere they can make you take them down.

Now lets look at the other angle. Are they really interested in providing the consumer with an accurate interpetation of your Dealership? What drives their revenue?

Two things.

Paid Subscriptions for your proposed lead potential and Advertising. And adverising for who?.... That's right.....Your competitors.

At one point I even saw on one of these sites who will remain nameless, a dealer who was not subscribed to their service. When you searched for them their "Free" page came up with reviews that had been written about them.

Guess what was right smack in the middle of their "Free" page? A huge banner ad for their nearest competitor, and I am talking Make specific.

This is exactly why POD exisits and why the dealers who are understand it and are spending the money and or the resources to employ it are on the right track rather than hiring a blackhat based company to provide a service that in the long run will fail.

Own your name. Don't let someone else profit from it.

Dear bear master,

I don't think that Yelp allows you to do anything different whether you pay or not to advertise with them. We should definatelly check it and see how that works.

 

[ryan.leslie]

Jeffrey,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for taking off the veil. This thread started 7 pages ago with a post from your company (looks like the user has been deleted) and now it has come full circle. I'd encourage any casual reader's to jump back to the beginning and Refresh your memory as to how this thread got started, it always helps to know where someone is coming from. I appreciate a good discussion and hope that my response will be seen by the dealers here as that. Vendor Spats aren't productive, but healthy discussion is always valuable.

1. Is your company selling a service to dealers to represent yourself as a customer and load reviews to multiple sites? Most of your comments look like they are intended to justify what the FTC and most here will fundamentally oppose- this may not be the cornerstone of your business, but it shouldn't be part of your business at all. Loading a review on behalf of anyone is a HUGE problem. This thread began there and I am glad to see it come back to this point. A dealer is ultimately liable for the actions of those they employee and paying for review content is expensive. The FTC is already handing out fines for this, $250,000 is a lot of money, but the most expensive part will be trying to climb back out of the gigantic PR hole getting caught will create. Read this article if you haven't already: FTC Fines Company For Bogus Online Reviews | paidContent The ONLY person clicking submit on ANY review on ANY site should be the uncompensated person with the FIRSTHAND experience. PERIOD.


2. This may sting a little, sorry, but how long has your company been in "Reputation Management?" I tried to research this, but I'm getting a 404 error on your site where the graphic that is referenced earlier in this thread used to be. DealerRater has been around and truly specializing in this for 10 years, it's all we do and rest assured, I've read a few reviews. What you may not know is that DealerRater started as the result of a review you would have said was ineligible. Chip had a very bad experience with a BMW dealer in the sales process and chose to take his business elsewhere. The second dealer he visited was a night and day difference in how he was treated, and boom, DealerRater was born. Chip's thought was pretty simple, "Consumers shouldn't have to get that far in the process just to discover they don't want to do business. There needs to be a way for objective consumers to identify the great dealers." 4000+ dealers have benefited from that simple thought. DealerRater provides a platform for consumers to share experiences. I don't need to open my wallet for my experience to be relevant to another consumer. I think I've already established that point. Consumers aren't stupid, they digest content really well and quickly make a determination about relevance. Pithy stuff like cologne choice isn't making decisions for anybody. That is one thing we don't need to police.


3. Most of your post revolves around responding to negative reviews and hiring an outside company to respond on behalf of the dealer. If you read here often you'd see that most of your arguments for responding have been discussed here at length already. You are reading from the DealerRater playbook on how to respond to negative reviews and why it's important to do so. Here's a post from back in March. My comment was that bad reviews are exacerbated when they are responded to incorrectly.

Final thought, dealers don't need an outside company to respond for them and they don't need anyone to submit reviews on behalf of a customer. They need to be authentic in their interactions, understand the consumers motivations for writing reviews, positive and negative, and provide great customer experiences from the first virtual handshake. I'm appreciating getting to know bzweifel here on the forum and I'd encourage everyone to read his post on Getting Reviews. His first point is "Provide good service, really good service." That one line just about sums it up...

 

[ryan.leslie]

When 90% of the people that leave reviews on line are in general the 10% that can never be pleased.

Have you read ZMOT? Google doesn't agree with your numbers... pg 32
http://www.zeromomentoftruth.com/google-zmot.pdf

Most reviews are good. “We’ve found that the worldwide average for product reviews is a 4.3 out of 5.0,” says Brett Hurt of Bazaarvoice. His company provides customer conversation services to corporations ranging from Wal-Mart to Johnson & Johnson. According to Brett, 80% of all reviews online are four to five stars.

 

[ddavis]

Ryan, I was approached by one of these firms that guaranteed a score on several different sites, including DealerRater, for $349 or $399 a month. When I refer to "Reputation Management", this is what I am talking about.

Earlier, you proposed a contest to see who could guess how many fake reviews DealerRater has removed. By this, I have to assume that it is a staggering number. The openning question: Dealers flooding review sites with fake user reviews has been answered. If DealerRater maintains the same diligence, they will continue to remove as many, in the same period of time, in the future.

Again, DealerRater could stop this if they really wanted to. It is all about the money. Honest dealers just want a level playing field.