FYI...Yahoo Autos only contributes an average of 800,000 uniques. Maybe a little more but not much.
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Autotrader.com Annual Sales Meeting 2009 - Another Side of AutoTrader?
J
JL
Guest
Geoff,
I just want to make sure that I understood your comment correctly. You canceled AT because your CRM tool showed 20 phone calls even though your salespeople, the ones that engage your customers, credit the site with 20 sales per month? Did I misunderstand something here, or did you?
I have a few follow up questions about no loss of sales:
How long ago did you cancel? How many monthly visitors on your site while using AT, how many after? How about floor traffic? How about calls to your dealership that weren't routed through a tracking number? Has enough time passed in a 90-120 day buying cycle market to really know if AT was returning on the investment?
Point is that figuring cost per lead on phone calls only is the 1990's of web marketing. Both the big players and edmunds recently completed independent studies on consumer behavior that highlight a noticeable shift away from phone and email submission. Respectfully, if that is all you are looking at you need to hold your other advertising to the same standards. If you can't draw a straight line between the source and the sale cut away, goodbye newspaper, goodbye billboards, goodbye radio, goodbye charity events, goodbye demos, heck if you really suck at tracking your sales, goodbye website. Are you ready to sit back and really rely on your walk-in traffic?
The internet has ushered in a new era of consumer behavior. There will be less straight lines between your marketing efforts and a sale. You need to be prepared to intelligently consider the strongest influencers of your sales as part of a viable mix. I'm not writing a blank check for AT here, but I am saying that you can't patently throw out web transfers as junk reporting.
There has to be an introduction before there can be a consummation. Are you sure enough to wager all of your website sales that AT had "nothing" to do with getting those buyers to your site?
I just want to make sure that I understood your comment correctly. You canceled AT because your CRM tool showed 20 phone calls even though your salespeople, the ones that engage your customers, credit the site with 20 sales per month? Did I misunderstand something here, or did you?
I have a few follow up questions about no loss of sales:
How long ago did you cancel? How many monthly visitors on your site while using AT, how many after? How about floor traffic? How about calls to your dealership that weren't routed through a tracking number? Has enough time passed in a 90-120 day buying cycle market to really know if AT was returning on the investment?
Point is that figuring cost per lead on phone calls only is the 1990's of web marketing. Both the big players and edmunds recently completed independent studies on consumer behavior that highlight a noticeable shift away from phone and email submission. Respectfully, if that is all you are looking at you need to hold your other advertising to the same standards. If you can't draw a straight line between the source and the sale cut away, goodbye newspaper, goodbye billboards, goodbye radio, goodbye charity events, goodbye demos, heck if you really suck at tracking your sales, goodbye website. Are you ready to sit back and really rely on your walk-in traffic?
The internet has ushered in a new era of consumer behavior. There will be less straight lines between your marketing efforts and a sale. You need to be prepared to intelligently consider the strongest influencers of your sales as part of a viable mix. I'm not writing a blank check for AT here, but I am saying that you can't patently throw out web transfers as junk reporting.
There has to be an introduction before there can be a consummation. Are you sure enough to wager all of your website sales that AT had "nothing" to do with getting those buyers to your site?
J
John B (blog)
Guest
Koolaid,
Why is it that my AT rep is now saying that AT had 16 million uniques on the site in March 2009? Why does AT continue to allow Spiders and Bots to inflate their traffic numbers? Is this to continue to deceive the car dealers?
Give us a break. The Dealer Center of AT used to have a disclaimer about the Spiders and Bots. Now they just have the asterisk without the explanation.
The deception continues.... a lot like the traffic numbers on the dealer center that mysteriously went away when they no longer were the Yahoo Autos partner site.
Why is it that my AT rep is now saying that AT had 16 million uniques on the site in March 2009? Why does AT continue to allow Spiders and Bots to inflate their traffic numbers? Is this to continue to deceive the car dealers?
Give us a break. The Dealer Center of AT used to have a disclaimer about the Spiders and Bots. Now they just have the asterisk without the explanation.
The deception continues.... a lot like the traffic numbers on the dealer center that mysteriously went away when they no longer were the Yahoo Autos partner site.
K
Kool-Aid
Guest
You still don't get it. Cars.com, ATC, etc., are all held to the same reporting standards as determined by the IAB. Therefore cars.com and ATC report numbers based on the same type of activity. Do some educational research on the subject and get back to me.
J
John B (blog)
Guest
Koolaid,
So traffic numbers from partner websites are never counted in total site traffic? Compete and Alexa are reporting organic searches. They do not combine traffic from organic searches and searches from partner sites to get the number of total searches.
You are so confused. Here is your educational research. Read this and if you still don't get it.... incredible.
So traffic numbers from partner websites are never counted in total site traffic? Compete and Alexa are reporting organic searches. They do not combine traffic from organic searches and searches from partner sites to get the number of total searches.
You are so confused. Here is your educational research. Read this and if you still don't get it.... incredible.
K
Kool-Aid
Guest
I'm aware of that. That is why compete or alexa only show 5-6 million for ATC. When you add in all of the partner sites...you get 16 million.
SCRAPER: (skrey-per) Noun
A program designed to take site content without permission. It catalogs and indexes the World Wide Web without following an industry standard protocol. Seeks to disguise itself and ignore the ROBOT.TXT file for instructions. At ATC, scrapers are eliminated from site metrics when we are able to identify them. Just like Cars.com .
If you would like me to explain what spiders are and how they work...let me know.
Bottom line...ATC had 16 million unique visitors and Cars.com had 10 million. Great numbers for both sites and I hope you are on both. You keep masquerading as a dealer...if you were a dealer and you are this bitter...cancel ATC!
SCRAPER: (skrey-per) Noun
A program designed to take site content without permission. It catalogs and indexes the World Wide Web without following an industry standard protocol. Seeks to disguise itself and ignore the ROBOT.TXT file for instructions. At ATC, scrapers are eliminated from site metrics when we are able to identify them. Just like Cars.com .
If you would like me to explain what spiders are and how they work...let me know.
Bottom line...ATC had 16 million unique visitors and Cars.com had 10 million. Great numbers for both sites and I hope you are on both. You keep masquerading as a dealer...if you were a dealer and you are this bitter...cancel ATC!
K
Kool-Aid
Guest
I'm still waiting for you to answer the question you keep dodging...Where did you come up with 3X the traffic?
T
Trader Hokie
Guest
How about we settle this once and for all... "Mr. Dealer... Yes, the economy is currently soft...ok, yes, it's bad. But unless you're going to close your doors tomorrow, you need to sell cars. And how are you going to do that? By reaching as many IN-MARKET car shoppers possible. Now of course, you can't advertise everywhere. The money just isn't there. You have a budget and you need to make every advertising dollar count. So where can you spend your money, that reaches the most car buyers possible? ON THE INTERNET. And when it comes to the Internet, there are TWO great websites that can reach the majority of car buyers--AutoTrader.com and Cars.com. AutoTrader partners with sites like Univision, MSN, KBB, NADA. Cars.com partners with Yahoo, Freebo, ConsumerGuide, and over 150 newspaper and TV outlets. We don't need to talk unique visitors on either site, who's the biggest or the baddest. These are the TWO front-running sites, with less than 25% overlap in unique visitors. If you only advertise on one, you're missing a large portion of the other site's audience. You could spend around $2000 for the Featured Plus product on ATC, around $2000 for the OAP on Cars.com, get an ROI from both that's OUTSTANDING, reach more in-market car buyers than any other combined media spend, and STILL pay less than what you're paying for ONE WEEK in the newspaper. Let's get reps together from both sides and create an INCREDIBLE campaign to help you move some metal."
I mean really guys, STOP THE BICKERING. I've worked for both Cox Enterprises and Classified Ventures. Both are great sites, both will work for the dealers, and you should spend more time fighting the wasted ad spend on TV and in the newspaper (and even on the radio of all places). Do you know in a C-Market like Charleston SC, one page, for one day in the newspaper, is like $1900--MORE if you ad color. A radio schedule in an A/B market like Norfolk VA, to reach a decent frequency, is AT LEAST $2500-$3000 a week or more. And TV? Forget it! The Internet is THE place to shop as a consumer to really know what you can get for your money. And you BOTH have the BEST sites for them. No one else even comes close. I bet if you actually worked TOGETHER against traditional media... You could get even more than just $2000 each per month. Stop talking traffic and start talking EXPOSURE and RESULTS.
By each side putting up a wall, and taking a competitive stance against the other site, you're actually demeaning your own product and your own reputation, in front of the dealer. Jeffrey Gitomer, one of the leading sales guru's of our time, practically uses the statement "people buy from people they trust" as his mantra. If you actually SUGGEST both sides work together in the best interest of the dealer...WOW...THAT will build trust. And then he'll actually COME TO YOU for ad decisions, and will be even willing to buy more if you can show him something is going to work.
Just my 2 cents...
I mean really guys, STOP THE BICKERING. I've worked for both Cox Enterprises and Classified Ventures. Both are great sites, both will work for the dealers, and you should spend more time fighting the wasted ad spend on TV and in the newspaper (and even on the radio of all places). Do you know in a C-Market like Charleston SC, one page, for one day in the newspaper, is like $1900--MORE if you ad color. A radio schedule in an A/B market like Norfolk VA, to reach a decent frequency, is AT LEAST $2500-$3000 a week or more. And TV? Forget it! The Internet is THE place to shop as a consumer to really know what you can get for your money. And you BOTH have the BEST sites for them. No one else even comes close. I bet if you actually worked TOGETHER against traditional media... You could get even more than just $2000 each per month. Stop talking traffic and start talking EXPOSURE and RESULTS.
By each side putting up a wall, and taking a competitive stance against the other site, you're actually demeaning your own product and your own reputation, in front of the dealer. Jeffrey Gitomer, one of the leading sales guru's of our time, practically uses the statement "people buy from people they trust" as his mantra. If you actually SUGGEST both sides work together in the best interest of the dealer...WOW...THAT will build trust. And then he'll actually COME TO YOU for ad decisions, and will be even willing to buy more if you can show him something is going to work.
Just my 2 cents...
Trader Hokie you will never get feedback from these guys regarding traditional media because they don't make decisions for that. They still have "internet budgets". The key is to find a website that owners blog and have that discussion. I still can't believe some of these dealers still have a separate budget for online when it is majority of their business. I always tell owners when you have an "internet department" you set your sales staff up to lie to you about sourcing. My favorite is when we hear about phone calls and emails. If they really knew about online, they would know majority of the traffic on sites like Autotrader and Cars don't do either. They just show up. Oh well, dealers always know more though. Maybe in 5 years they will figure this out.
M
MikeMTempe
Guest
What a conversation! If nothing else ATC brings out the passion from both sides. As a former CAT employee for almost 8 years I have heard the stories from both sides, the dealer and CAT. On a side note I'm trying to figure out the identity of Trader Hokie since I was the Desert DM for AutoExtra.com.
Back to the comments, the arguments over ATC and Cars are getting old and dated. Dealers, you need both of them no question. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. As for those that like to claim print is dead or dying, you really need to look at the whole picture. While newspapers are on the ropes targeted publications still do very well and under the current conditions can be very cost effective.
The Internet is no different than other advertising mediums in the basics which are target demo, reach, frequency and most important the message (call to action). Yes the Internet does give the benefit of more content for less money. But just as your used lot doesn't contain all one make or one model, your advertising mix should not be all one or two choices. As much I as love the Automotive Internet Business (now working on building another auto site in the Phoenix market), we love to throw stats around more than politicians love polling numbers. Are effective? Do we offer great ROI? Can we target better than other mediums? Yes to all. One caveat......ROI is subjective.
Can the Internet deliver buyers to the Internet Dept. of course. But what about the "soft" results that are always talked about. Clicks to the website? I can't tell you how many dealers I've dealt with in 3 states that tell me those are not legit. But when pressed they are spending a couple of thousand with Reach Local or some other SEM/SEO campaign and count the clicks. Why not with an automotive site? What about the walk in traffic? From the last ATC/Northwood Univ study, I believe it 54% of customers generated by online never email or call? As Sellmorecars just noted, these set up the "driveby" scenario on the sales floor to avoid the split. Been there, done that, not proud of it.
I've had more dealers tell me they always look at the results from any site I was with, take the hard leads and add 25% for the soft leads they couldn't track. They got it when it came to understanding what the internet and auto sites were about. Not lead providers, just plain advertising with better accountability to a degree.
Fight all you want. ATC is the big dog on the street. While I don't drink the "Kool-Aid", I hope the changes they are putting in place will be successful. They don't want to admit it but there is competition out there, even from the small regional and local sites like me. What dealers need to realize and it shows in the comments, they are in the newspaper syndrome with ATC and Cars to a certain level. I need to be there because my competition is there and they spend $200 million to advertise. Just as Trader Magazine was once the source for cars and has faded, the auto listing sites will do the same but will not go away. They will just be another source.
While the big guys fight it out for the listings win, us little guys will take the next step and use listings, .mobi, texting, Behavorial, video and traditional media to deliver the right message, at the right time to the shopper and buyer all from one source. To the former CAT people that will sound familiar.
There's room for all of us in the market. The current conditions will not last forever and the ones left standing will have a wide open field to compete on. Someone said 5 years behind is an enternity in the Internet. When you look at it, the auto listings and CPL models are already dated. One can only do so much to spruce up an old technology. ATC lost a great resource when it let CAT (which ATC was part of) fall. They lost the ability to go cross channel and reach every potential buyer. Someone earlier said that 78% (another one of those polling #'s) of people looking for cars use the Internet, what about the other 22% are they not worthy of seeing what is available? Are they not worth our time and attention? Are the 78% that go online really in the market at that time?
I’m all for the Internet and what it can do for the dealership. With that said I can also make the argument it should be low priced. Another subjective term. I firmly believe we on the Internet vendor side of the table tend to invent and introduce more products that offer little in value as far as functionality and ROI but sell the sizzle to get the revenue. Capitalism at it’s best and I’ve been guilty of it. But for the dealers out there, ask yourself, I spend all this money on location, location, location for the drive by traffic and eyeballs. Does it really give me the ROI? If you say yes, then why do you need to advertise? Paying more for Internet listings is the same thing, most of the traffic any of our sites generate are “drive by”. If I looked at the mix, could I reallocate some of those funds for other products that would enhance what I already have?
Good luck to ATC. Thanks for letting me ramble.
Back to the comments, the arguments over ATC and Cars are getting old and dated. Dealers, you need both of them no question. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. As for those that like to claim print is dead or dying, you really need to look at the whole picture. While newspapers are on the ropes targeted publications still do very well and under the current conditions can be very cost effective.
The Internet is no different than other advertising mediums in the basics which are target demo, reach, frequency and most important the message (call to action). Yes the Internet does give the benefit of more content for less money. But just as your used lot doesn't contain all one make or one model, your advertising mix should not be all one or two choices. As much I as love the Automotive Internet Business (now working on building another auto site in the Phoenix market), we love to throw stats around more than politicians love polling numbers. Are effective? Do we offer great ROI? Can we target better than other mediums? Yes to all. One caveat......ROI is subjective.
Can the Internet deliver buyers to the Internet Dept. of course. But what about the "soft" results that are always talked about. Clicks to the website? I can't tell you how many dealers I've dealt with in 3 states that tell me those are not legit. But when pressed they are spending a couple of thousand with Reach Local or some other SEM/SEO campaign and count the clicks. Why not with an automotive site? What about the walk in traffic? From the last ATC/Northwood Univ study, I believe it 54% of customers generated by online never email or call? As Sellmorecars just noted, these set up the "driveby" scenario on the sales floor to avoid the split. Been there, done that, not proud of it.
I've had more dealers tell me they always look at the results from any site I was with, take the hard leads and add 25% for the soft leads they couldn't track. They got it when it came to understanding what the internet and auto sites were about. Not lead providers, just plain advertising with better accountability to a degree.
Fight all you want. ATC is the big dog on the street. While I don't drink the "Kool-Aid", I hope the changes they are putting in place will be successful. They don't want to admit it but there is competition out there, even from the small regional and local sites like me. What dealers need to realize and it shows in the comments, they are in the newspaper syndrome with ATC and Cars to a certain level. I need to be there because my competition is there and they spend $200 million to advertise. Just as Trader Magazine was once the source for cars and has faded, the auto listing sites will do the same but will not go away. They will just be another source.
While the big guys fight it out for the listings win, us little guys will take the next step and use listings, .mobi, texting, Behavorial, video and traditional media to deliver the right message, at the right time to the shopper and buyer all from one source. To the former CAT people that will sound familiar.
There's room for all of us in the market. The current conditions will not last forever and the ones left standing will have a wide open field to compete on. Someone said 5 years behind is an enternity in the Internet. When you look at it, the auto listings and CPL models are already dated. One can only do so much to spruce up an old technology. ATC lost a great resource when it let CAT (which ATC was part of) fall. They lost the ability to go cross channel and reach every potential buyer. Someone earlier said that 78% (another one of those polling #'s) of people looking for cars use the Internet, what about the other 22% are they not worthy of seeing what is available? Are they not worth our time and attention? Are the 78% that go online really in the market at that time?
I’m all for the Internet and what it can do for the dealership. With that said I can also make the argument it should be low priced. Another subjective term. I firmly believe we on the Internet vendor side of the table tend to invent and introduce more products that offer little in value as far as functionality and ROI but sell the sizzle to get the revenue. Capitalism at it’s best and I’ve been guilty of it. But for the dealers out there, ask yourself, I spend all this money on location, location, location for the drive by traffic and eyeballs. Does it really give me the ROI? If you say yes, then why do you need to advertise? Paying more for Internet listings is the same thing, most of the traffic any of our sites generate are “drive by”. If I looked at the mix, could I reallocate some of those funds for other products that would enhance what I already have?
Good luck to ATC. Thanks for letting me ramble.
