Shaun - you're right. There really isn't any benefit to anyone here anymore. I don't know what it is but the worst in me seems to come out when talking to Larry. This isn't the first time, and I apologize to anyone who has been trying to keep up with this comment string for my part in it.
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Hey Matt,
Very informative article. I have never been a big advocate of PPC/Search Campaigns but not because I thought they wouldn't drive awareness or traffic. I have always been against them because I felt that dealers didn't do enough tracking to really be able to measure the results. You've done a great job of breaking this down and explaining the behaviors and I loved reading through this.
I only wish that dealers would put more effort into measuring and tracking how their advertising mediums are working and why they are or aren't working.
More than that, and I am a little biased here, I wish that dealers would spend more time making sure that their team could actually handle their customers properly; regardless of the ad source that brought them in.
Thanks again for the great read!
Very informative article. I have never been a big advocate of PPC/Search Campaigns but not because I thought they wouldn't drive awareness or traffic. I have always been against them because I felt that dealers didn't do enough tracking to really be able to measure the results. You've done a great job of breaking this down and explaining the behaviors and I loved reading through this.
I only wish that dealers would put more effort into measuring and tracking how their advertising mediums are working and why they are or aren't working.
More than that, and I am a little biased here, I wish that dealers would spend more time making sure that their team could actually handle their customers properly; regardless of the ad source that brought them in.
Thanks again for the great read!
I am gonna start at the bottom first.
I am not sorry for this post, I think it has been a great discussion and FOR THE RECORD, I am proud for my part in it. To anyone that couldn’t keep up, the post and comments aren’t going anywhere read it when you have time. For those people that don't like the discussion going on here, I’ve got a great idea… don't read it! You have the choice of the back button just as everyone on the web.
REALLY GUYS…REALLY!
What exactly are we apologizing for? Your opinion? This is just stupid…
I have had 5 dealers contact me telling me what a great discussion this was, one even suggesting a panel discussion and a pod cast. I have never had that request from a dealer before. My sense is that this helped more dealers than some who have commented here might think.
All involved just because dealers don't comment doesn't mean that they are getting value. We are the providers if we don't know more about it than the dealer, what do they need us for?
Almost every comment here has added value to the conversation some comments have strayed a bit from the original topic but they have been good conversions as well. I know I have taken away some nuggets from this thread that have caused me to re-evaluate how I look at dealership branded terms and what we might be able to do with them and pre-conversion segmentation. I asked Bryan Eisenberg to take a look at the post as I couldn’t see much coloration to personas in it, he had a very interesting observation “Great behavioral segmentation which could lead to a good build in personas” I saw the behavioral segmentation part but didn’t see that as a stepping stone to a persona build the same way, another great take away for me.
So to who ever came in beating up this thread because people were lettin it all hang out in the discussion, you miss the whole point of a blog this was one of the better discussions I have been in on a blog in some time. A blog post loses its value when all the comments are … Great post man! Not that we who post them don't want those accolades to boost our belief, but I for one get so much more when there is good passionate back and forth conversation.
Now that’s said I’ll move on to the more worthy content.
@Ed, I have not totally dismissed the 2009 Northwood ATC study, I just don't agree with the interpretations in the data. I do not question that the majority of conversions happen offline, and have seen and agree with the comscore data and referenced a 2008 study earlier in this tread. (http://www.dmconfidential.com/blogs/column/Search_Engines/2446/)
“Additionally, you are the only person I’ve ever seen define a conversion as: Any form submission, phone call, email or chat session where good re-contact information is captured for the dealership to follow-up with the customer.
The standard seems to be much simpler: The percentage of visitors who take a desired action.
The desired action for car dealer is usually selling a car, but it might be setting a service appointment or selling an accessory.”
Ed the reason I put this definition on conversion is that in lead gen the desired action is getting the customers information, in the end no matter what you're doing if you end up with good customer contact information then the dealer has received something of value.
In an appointment you get good re-contact info and with the sale of an accessory either online or off you get good re-contact information, its kinda universal.
You cannot go to the sale level of the car because marketing doesn't sell cars. It puts someone that wants to buy a car in front of someone that wants to sell one. That’s its job, no more.
The $600 figure is what we are spending that is the total ad dollars spent on ATC / the total cars sold we can attribute to ATC. This is where other dealers I have talked are as well some much higher none lower. Our gross is far higher than $600 per car.
@ Craig, that’s how I win the fight… ware you down!
,Matt is cool BTW.
@Matt, “1. The average of these #’s might be 30, but that doesn’t take into account the volume of traffic to those properties. I could put up a site that says “click here for a free car!” then wait for the first visitor to convert and report a 100% conversion rate. That wouldn’t be too fair though.”
I understand what you're saying but I really don't have time to think of ways to manipulate the numbers I could give you a few samples but I can’t put pics up on comments here. Will do a case study on a campaign we are about to launch in NY should be interesting. Suffice to say these are real cars real offers and real conversions.
“2. Averaging Facebook into your conversion numbers is interesting. How are you defining a FB conversion? A “Like”?
No that is actual conversions the purpose of those campaigns are not to generate friends, although they do, the purpose is demand generation, CTR us relatively low as you might expect from demand generation.
“As a reminder, the main point of the original post is that customers consider a product or many products, move up and down the funnel, then pick a dealership, not just a vehicle. This results in higher conversion on the dealership name.”
Finally as I said earlier there, I have taken away some points from this post that have caused me to think about the dealerships name and we are preparing some tests now, I will let you know how that goes.
@alex, I am not trying to paint you into anything. You know as well as I do you cannot separate yourself and when you make comment like that its going to be perceived DDC, I can’t help that it’s just the way it is. I had the exact same conversation with Bob Brockman and he was right, as an employee and officer of Reynolds & Reynolds anything I say would be taken in that context, you even did it yourself to me on a post from ADM, where you brought Reynolds into it, still have the email Alex.
The point is it’s a natural assumption and you cannot separate the two. I couldn’t so I just didn’t comment or blog on DMS things while at Reynolds and you can’t and have to make a choice on how you handle it on dealerrefresh.
As far as spin, there is none I have been very transparent where my numbers come from and why I think it can be achieved. If you or anyone else out there thinks I am full of … well that’s your opinion and like …holes everyone has got one, I’m ok with that. If you want to consider us not friends well I'm not going to beg you to be my friend, that’s the great thing about friends you get to pick’em, do what you like there Alex. I like friends that can have good intelligent conversation and not walk away with a chip on their shoulder.
As far as my posts other places Clearing up a few things (http://pcmguy.com/2010/11/clearing-up-a-few-things-2/) posted in other places including my blog, well Alex you were the one saying that it was causing a problem with dealers so I thought I should clear it up before it got out of hand, that’s all I really don't see the issue and Alex, I can’t post on dealerrefresh. The only person so I can tell in this whole that is up in arms is you. The rest of us seem to be having a good conversation.
That dealership selling out of an “Airplane Hanger” and its actually a junk yard & now a 15 acre renovated Autonation used car building, sold over 1600 units last month. What did the biggest dealer you know of sell Longo, maybe if they are even still at those numbers? In my world Alex that’s a pretty large scale, I don't what your worlds like. We reopened our store again so I don't get the exact numbers from TX Direct anymore but the above number is low by a few units.
As for my store numbers Alex, well I just gave them to you if you want to detail impression data, click data and conversion data, I’ll pull it together in the morning and post it here I not messing with that tonight. I don't have a problem sharing at that level data, even though Ed won’t share, not a shot Ed just messin with ya you have a few more layers to go through than I do (I guess we have to clarify that here now).
As for you comment at the bottom of the post, I don't even know what to say to that.
@Shaun I don't know about anyone else but I have had several comments from dealers that say they love this post as a matter of fact one dealer who has commented on this post told me it was the best post he has read on dealerrefresh all year. That just me though.
@Jeff, I don't know how we got to 40% even my highest achieved number is 32% we are at 30% as of this morning, I am shooting for 40% I think there are some new technologies we are introducing with on site and off site retargeting, that and with the brand of a franchise store I believe we can scare 40%. Jeff you always have to begin with the end in mind. If you don't know where you're going you don't know how to get there. No doubt I have respect for everyone who has commented in this post it has made me rethink some of my opinions and I think will make for some interesting tests over the next few months.
Jeff I will definitely let you know when we get there, would love to get your budget I suspect even 20% is better than you're getting now, maybe not. When we have a few more dealer we'll talk.
@Ed, You should know Ed I feel the same way, I have no animosity for anyone in this thread. This is a great conversation none of this is a shot or meant in anger. The brainwashed thing… I told you I couldn’t think of a better more politically correct way to say it (and that just wouldn’t be me) but I meant it with the up most respect! Still do… Hey Ed sometimes what you have to say takes a long comment, it is what it is.
Well that's that for now. On to the next comment.
I am not sorry for this post, I think it has been a great discussion and FOR THE RECORD, I am proud for my part in it. To anyone that couldn’t keep up, the post and comments aren’t going anywhere read it when you have time. For those people that don't like the discussion going on here, I’ve got a great idea… don't read it! You have the choice of the back button just as everyone on the web.
REALLY GUYS…REALLY!
What exactly are we apologizing for? Your opinion? This is just stupid…
I have had 5 dealers contact me telling me what a great discussion this was, one even suggesting a panel discussion and a pod cast. I have never had that request from a dealer before. My sense is that this helped more dealers than some who have commented here might think.
All involved just because dealers don't comment doesn't mean that they are getting value. We are the providers if we don't know more about it than the dealer, what do they need us for?
Almost every comment here has added value to the conversation some comments have strayed a bit from the original topic but they have been good conversions as well. I know I have taken away some nuggets from this thread that have caused me to re-evaluate how I look at dealership branded terms and what we might be able to do with them and pre-conversion segmentation. I asked Bryan Eisenberg to take a look at the post as I couldn’t see much coloration to personas in it, he had a very interesting observation “Great behavioral segmentation which could lead to a good build in personas” I saw the behavioral segmentation part but didn’t see that as a stepping stone to a persona build the same way, another great take away for me.
So to who ever came in beating up this thread because people were lettin it all hang out in the discussion, you miss the whole point of a blog this was one of the better discussions I have been in on a blog in some time. A blog post loses its value when all the comments are … Great post man! Not that we who post them don't want those accolades to boost our belief, but I for one get so much more when there is good passionate back and forth conversation.
Now that’s said I’ll move on to the more worthy content.
@Ed, I have not totally dismissed the 2009 Northwood ATC study, I just don't agree with the interpretations in the data. I do not question that the majority of conversions happen offline, and have seen and agree with the comscore data and referenced a 2008 study earlier in this tread. (http://www.dmconfidential.com/blogs/column/Search_Engines/2446/)
“Additionally, you are the only person I’ve ever seen define a conversion as: Any form submission, phone call, email or chat session where good re-contact information is captured for the dealership to follow-up with the customer.
The standard seems to be much simpler: The percentage of visitors who take a desired action.
The desired action for car dealer is usually selling a car, but it might be setting a service appointment or selling an accessory.”
Ed the reason I put this definition on conversion is that in lead gen the desired action is getting the customers information, in the end no matter what you're doing if you end up with good customer contact information then the dealer has received something of value.
In an appointment you get good re-contact info and with the sale of an accessory either online or off you get good re-contact information, its kinda universal.
You cannot go to the sale level of the car because marketing doesn't sell cars. It puts someone that wants to buy a car in front of someone that wants to sell one. That’s its job, no more.
The $600 figure is what we are spending that is the total ad dollars spent on ATC / the total cars sold we can attribute to ATC. This is where other dealers I have talked are as well some much higher none lower. Our gross is far higher than $600 per car.
@ Craig, that’s how I win the fight… ware you down!
,Matt is cool BTW.@Matt, “1. The average of these #’s might be 30, but that doesn’t take into account the volume of traffic to those properties. I could put up a site that says “click here for a free car!” then wait for the first visitor to convert and report a 100% conversion rate. That wouldn’t be too fair though.”
I understand what you're saying but I really don't have time to think of ways to manipulate the numbers I could give you a few samples but I can’t put pics up on comments here. Will do a case study on a campaign we are about to launch in NY should be interesting. Suffice to say these are real cars real offers and real conversions.
“2. Averaging Facebook into your conversion numbers is interesting. How are you defining a FB conversion? A “Like”?
No that is actual conversions the purpose of those campaigns are not to generate friends, although they do, the purpose is demand generation, CTR us relatively low as you might expect from demand generation.
“As a reminder, the main point of the original post is that customers consider a product or many products, move up and down the funnel, then pick a dealership, not just a vehicle. This results in higher conversion on the dealership name.”
Finally as I said earlier there, I have taken away some points from this post that have caused me to think about the dealerships name and we are preparing some tests now, I will let you know how that goes.
@alex, I am not trying to paint you into anything. You know as well as I do you cannot separate yourself and when you make comment like that its going to be perceived DDC, I can’t help that it’s just the way it is. I had the exact same conversation with Bob Brockman and he was right, as an employee and officer of Reynolds & Reynolds anything I say would be taken in that context, you even did it yourself to me on a post from ADM, where you brought Reynolds into it, still have the email Alex.
The point is it’s a natural assumption and you cannot separate the two. I couldn’t so I just didn’t comment or blog on DMS things while at Reynolds and you can’t and have to make a choice on how you handle it on dealerrefresh.
As far as spin, there is none I have been very transparent where my numbers come from and why I think it can be achieved. If you or anyone else out there thinks I am full of … well that’s your opinion and like …holes everyone has got one, I’m ok with that. If you want to consider us not friends well I'm not going to beg you to be my friend, that’s the great thing about friends you get to pick’em, do what you like there Alex. I like friends that can have good intelligent conversation and not walk away with a chip on their shoulder.
As far as my posts other places Clearing up a few things (http://pcmguy.com/2010/11/clearing-up-a-few-things-2/) posted in other places including my blog, well Alex you were the one saying that it was causing a problem with dealers so I thought I should clear it up before it got out of hand, that’s all I really don't see the issue and Alex, I can’t post on dealerrefresh. The only person so I can tell in this whole that is up in arms is you. The rest of us seem to be having a good conversation.
That dealership selling out of an “Airplane Hanger” and its actually a junk yard & now a 15 acre renovated Autonation used car building, sold over 1600 units last month. What did the biggest dealer you know of sell Longo, maybe if they are even still at those numbers? In my world Alex that’s a pretty large scale, I don't what your worlds like. We reopened our store again so I don't get the exact numbers from TX Direct anymore but the above number is low by a few units.
As for my store numbers Alex, well I just gave them to you if you want to detail impression data, click data and conversion data, I’ll pull it together in the morning and post it here I not messing with that tonight. I don't have a problem sharing at that level data, even though Ed won’t share, not a shot Ed just messin with ya you have a few more layers to go through than I do (I guess we have to clarify that here now).
As for you comment at the bottom of the post, I don't even know what to say to that.
@Shaun I don't know about anyone else but I have had several comments from dealers that say they love this post as a matter of fact one dealer who has commented on this post told me it was the best post he has read on dealerrefresh all year. That just me though.
@Jeff, I don't know how we got to 40% even my highest achieved number is 32% we are at 30% as of this morning, I am shooting for 40% I think there are some new technologies we are introducing with on site and off site retargeting, that and with the brand of a franchise store I believe we can scare 40%. Jeff you always have to begin with the end in mind. If you don't know where you're going you don't know how to get there. No doubt I have respect for everyone who has commented in this post it has made me rethink some of my opinions and I think will make for some interesting tests over the next few months.
Jeff I will definitely let you know when we get there, would love to get your budget
I suspect even 20% is better than you're getting now, maybe not. When we have a few more dealer we'll talk.@Ed, You should know Ed I feel the same way, I have no animosity for anyone in this thread. This is a great conversation none of this is a shot or meant in anger. The brainwashed thing… I told you I couldn’t think of a better more politically correct way to say it (and that just wouldn’t be me) but I meant it with the up most respect! Still do… Hey Ed sometimes what you have to say takes a long comment, it is what it is.
Well that's that for now. On to the next comment.
My last post was not to you Larry. It was to the people who are not viewing this comment string as productive anymore.
You obviously remember our first encounter as you have the email, so let me clarify that for everyone following along. You used Checkered Flag as an example of how things should not be done to promote some heat map thing you were pitching. Someone pointed that article out to my boss, who found out that you were an employee of Reynolds. That was all we knew. Then, I publicly asked you what this was about. The conversation went offline and, only knowing that you were an employee of Reynolds, I informed you of what we thought of your article. It wasn't until months later when I found out your employment to Reynolds was through a buy out, and since then I have never brought you and Reynolds up together again.
On the other hand, you've known me long before 5 months ago when I moved to Vermont. In fact, you've been telling people we're friends and for these reasons I said you should stop considering me one. We're not.
Is this the dealership you work with Best Used Cars For Sale Houston, Texas.?
You obviously remember our first encounter as you have the email, so let me clarify that for everyone following along. You used Checkered Flag as an example of how things should not be done to promote some heat map thing you were pitching. Someone pointed that article out to my boss, who found out that you were an employee of Reynolds. That was all we knew. Then, I publicly asked you what this was about. The conversation went offline and, only knowing that you were an employee of Reynolds, I informed you of what we thought of your article. It wasn't until months later when I found out your employment to Reynolds was through a buy out, and since then I have never brought you and Reynolds up together again.
On the other hand, you've known me long before 5 months ago when I moved to Vermont. In fact, you've been telling people we're friends and for these reasons I said you should stop considering me one. We're not.
Is this the dealership you work with Best Used Cars For Sale Houston, Texas.?
Alex, again just making a point. Really I don't know who you have been talking to but you really don’t come up in my conversations to dealers. At best Alex we are acquaintances, I have a very different definition of a friend than you do.
If you want to take this personal, I can't stop you from doing that, just know that it's not from my part.
If you want to take this personal, I can't stop you from doing that, just know that it's not from my part.
Mat, thanks for the comment. Measurement can be great and can also be really bad. I'm sure You've heard the term "Paralysis by Analysis".
The beauty of paid search to me is that the measurement is extremely easy in comparison to other ad methods. Glad to hear that you are focused on understanding the importance of your web metrics. Let me know if there is any way that I can help.
The beauty of paid search to me is that the measurement is extremely easy in comparison to other ad methods. Glad to hear that you are focused on understanding the importance of your web metrics. Let me know if there is any way that I can help.
