Ok, I just couldn't help weiging in. I know I should be working right now, but I got sucked into Jeff's blog - darn you! Tara, Tara, Tara, your obvious failure to understand Jeff's email was frustrating and you are lucky I am not Jeff, because I have a blazing temper and I would have unloaded. But, in respect for Jeff's blog, I will refrain, since I personally have no experience with iMotors, but can certainly empathize. Our group has 64 dealerships in the Mid-Atlantic and we have cut almost all of our third party leads except for two providers. The frustration our internet teams have with bad leads and the time spent chasing them is a concern that stretches all the way to corporate where I sit.

The last thing we want our internet teams doing is chasing their tail, which is the very thing you callously skipped over and called "hard work." No, that is stupid work. Work smarter, not harder is what we say and we do our best to provide our teams with tools and leads to help them do just that and you can believe, iMotors will never be one of them.

Erica Sietsma
Manager of CRM Systems
Mile One Automotive

We've been using iMotors for awhile, a bit over a month. We've so far had little if anything in the way of success. I will give them credit for their customer service, they've always been helpful, but the leads are pretty much all duds. The problem is most leads don't qualify for credit due to their circumstances.

I wouldn't recommended this service based solely on that It's better to use AutoTrader or cars.com as they acquire their leads from people who are legitimately looking for a car (at least sometimes) Those looking with iMotors (and any of the smaller pay per lead groups) are usually just tire-kicking. This is a problem not exclusive to iMotors, so you must be careful. Not saying they all are like this, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

I give iMotors a pass, go for the more well-known sources that cater more to people who are seriously looking for a car.

I guess my question to the iMotors Reps here would be this: if it's true that people do well with your program, where are those people? I haven't seen a positive comment yet from an iMotors client or ex-client. I also don't know any industry counterpart of mine who would promote iMotors as a vendor.

I was just pitched the iMotors program again yesterday (wouldn't take a whole lot of research on their part to know I'm the same ex-client who axed their program within 2 months and subsequently posted my displeasure on DealerRefresh)... I almost felt bad for the guy, as it seemed he was new to the company, or at least the region.

If I were iMotors, I'd be calling up some of those successful clients I supposedly have, and bribing them to surf over to DealerRefresh and leave some love. If said dealers are successful with the program, I'm sure they wouldn't be fazed by the negativity of the other comments.

iMotors = "Punch the Monkey Leads"

Before becoming the Sales Director for CarSpot, I was the eCommerce Director of the Boucher Automotive Group in Wisconsin (18 dealerships). We pretty much tried every lead source... well at least once.

iMotors was the cheapest leads out there; I guess you would say we got what we paid for. These leads became to be known as "Punch the Monkey Leads"... since many of the customers that we called would tell us that they weren't in the market for a car, but they "Punched the Monkey" to get a free Xbox and were required to sign up for credit card and submit multiple leads for various products.

The big kicker was when we contacted the customers, they wanted to know when they would get their Xbox? Even after we explained how we had received their information, they would call us back looking for their "earned" goods.

If there is anything that I can say, we left iMotors and transferred more of our business (spending) to Dealix and were much happier. Dealix is more expensive, but their lead sources are better screened and the leads are filtered and cross checked. Dealix also does a follow up survey that helps track where a customer is in their buying process.

-JoE Drosen
National Sales Director, CarSpot

Excuse me waiter, can you get my friend Jeff an ice water...

Well versed, and so true! I have not experienced this with iMotors but have with another vendor.

A month before arriving at a dealer group a few years ago as Internet Director, a BDC dept was put in place with a 2 day crash course on a ILM tool, with nothing but an auto reply and a few email templates to handle leads. Out of 6 BDC personel, only 2 had any internet experience.

With good intentions, the COO also signed on with a pay-per-lead service across 4 main locations relying on promises of quality leads.

As we all know, most upper management is not as knowledgeable as us in the trenches to the tricks of this trade, one of them being putting a monthly LEAD CAP on a new service such as this.

Two months later the controller is asking me about bills for $2500-$3500 per location per month and what we got back from it. Finally getting time to dig the reports out of the ILM tool (besides overseeing BDC I was also selling across 8 rooftops with 12 manufacturers), I about had a heart attack!

Every location was receiving 100-200 leads from just the one vendor, most getting only an auto response and nothing else.

Obviously not all is the vendors fault, but as I suggested when asking the vendor for a "little help" with the first two months of billing, almost $20,000...

"When selling a vehicle to a customer, I don't want to just sell them a car today, but also their next vehicle, friends and family for a lifetime. Hurray for your sales rep that got the big hit, but now you lost a customer for a lifetime. Had he eased us into your service (25 leads per account/month) and we could experience how quality your leads supposedly are, then raise the lead cap and we would all continue to benefit for years to come." Win Win.

What happened to morals, integrity, and honesty? Was the sales rep that desperate for money, ignorant, or just didn't care? I like to think if it had been myself seeing the situation, I would have made some suggestions to start slow and build up.

Better yet, on a 2nd round of trying the vendor months later (not my choice) and them promising how this is the "premier" package in which all customers are called by them to confirm before passing the lead on... Yeah, I put in three leads personally and no one called to confirm any of them and most leads were coming from over 100 miles away.

Waiter, an ice water for me please!

Hello,

I am a sales representative at iMotors.com and I had a couple questions for you. I notice some of you are concerned that you receive too much e-mail "junk" through our company. Basically, e-mails are sent to customers who visit our website to remind them of local dealerships in their area willing to help them out with their future car purchase. Now isn't this similair to the same e-mail they would get from you when someone visits a dealership website and receives an automatic response after they insert their information in your personal dealer website? Yes, those e-mails sent from dealerships can get annoying, yet they also remind the consumer that someone is there willing to help them with their future car purchase.

Also, I noticed Jeff saying he sold 2 cars out of 26 valid leads (about 10%), which is industry average for most dealerships, which could be classified as good! Also, he made a high gross from those 2 vehicles sold and he also received great customer service along the way.

From the looks of the article it seems like the only thing Jeff was concerned with was his time and energy spent working the leads being sent to him. I'm sure we can all agree that hard work equals great success. I have been the top sales person at reply for the past year and its because of my hard work, never giving up, persistant sales skills is what allows me to be rewarded! I suggest if you want a lead provider to work for you, that you remain consistant with the leads received, regardles if there are bad names or bad numbers (which get credited anyways) because sorting through the bad, you are sure to find a gem.

I spoke with an internet sales managers in CO recently who told me he was happy to receive a duplicate lead from another provider because it indicated the customer who he already was dealing with was interested in another car. So he called him and asked if he was interested in this other car and the customer told him he was being pushy, but that he had changed his mind and he ended up purchasing the new car he was interested in. Psychologically, being a persistant sales person will help you out in the long run.

Basically, we (lead providers) are very similiar, yet different. The main thing that can separate any company would have to be their service. If we are willing to help you out any way possible and credit you for anything that is unworkable, why wouldn't you want to try our service out.

Jeff, there is no such thing as a perfect lead provider and no we are not selling "magic" leads, if this was the case, I'm sure we would be charging at least $500 per lead if we knew for sure the lead would turn into an automatic sale, but we do have an excellent service, with excellent people, and we try our hardest to make our dealerships happy. Some people do well with our program and some people don't, but what it really boils down to is the internet process of the dealership and how each lead is being handled.

Each lead is like a bomb, if handled incorrectly, the lead will explode and go elsewhere.

We used iMotors a long time ago in some sort of freebie trial. I think we also had something coming in from them through Isuzu - when we were selling Isuzu's. I do recall there being a high amount of bad leads, but it was too long ago to remember the factors that made them bad.

Before reading this thread I had already decided not to use their services again. Unfortunately, there are quite a few lead providers out there like this. As more pop up they will only degrade the reputation of 3rd Party Lead Providers further.....with us and our customers.

One of the primary reasons autoresponders do nothing for a consumer is that the sheer volume of emails hitting an Up's inbox from different dealers simply numbs their interest.

Jeff, I don't know if you've ever mystery shopped through iMotors.com, but if you try it out, you'll find that they send their own promotional crap at least once a day to consumers; that's 14 emails in the first two weeks just coming from the place you submit your lead to... not to mention all the emails you're getting from competing dealers. Here I am shopping their site on purpose for market research, and even I got sick of opening the emails.

Great article Jeff.

While I have not used iMotors, I suspect most any 3rd party lead provider that is not a marquee player like AutoUSA, Dealix, etc have the possibility (likelihood?) of being an operation trying to cash in on the Internet fever.

For example, there are many SEO/SEM companies relying on the customers' ignorance of what services they provide and the value of SEO/SEM. A friend who runs his own SEO/SEM business is constanctly finding some of his competitors are quoting 5 figures a month for an SEM campaign for a plumbing or roofing service or a doctor's practice, simply because the customer doesn't know better. Point of the story is these people are cashing in on the ignorant for a quick buck, and I suspect many lead providers are doing the same thing.

Jeff,

I agree with you 100% about imotors. I experienced the same exact results with them.

They are too much brain damage to deal with for sure.

Gilbert

Hello Jeff,

Thank you for your feedback on your recent experience with leads from iMotors and the opportunity to respond. Our account records for your dealership show you were provided with 51 leads over 90 days. Of those leads you requested and were given credits on 25 of them. Your account manager indicates you were successful developing 2 of the 26 leads you actually paid for into sales. I agree you had some duplicates. Most dealerships are well aware that many online consumers will attempt to get dealer quotes through multiple sources and duplicate prevention is difficult to do. That being said, as you experienced we are happy to issue credits when duplicates occur.

So if I may summarize your articles critique of iMotors:

 You spent less than $500 for 26 leads
 You sold 2 vehicles that held very good gross
 You received friendly and professional client service that happily accommodated your service requests

I regret this did not represent enough ROI to retain you as a customer. Our objective is to deliver each of our over 1,000 dealer clients the best online sales opportunities possible. The great majority of these dealers have been happy with their ROI and their experience with iMotors and I hope none of them feel like “suckers”. We will continue to work hard for our valued dealer clients and recognize that the dealers ROI combined with great service is essential for our success. We wish you the best in your ongoing search for those perfect leads that all answer your first call and actually want the vehicle you have in stock, we will continue to try to develop the same.

Good luck Jeff!

David Greene
EVP, Sales & Service Operations

Hmm... from the screen shot it looks like you are working in two separate systems. Are you not automatically importing the leads into your CRM and then having the CRM validate the phone number, email (via domain) and then setting up some logic to validate the user input through Bayesian classifier... etc. Granted this should have been done on iMotors.com end...

It is not really a secret how these lead generators are really getting the leads... it is mostly done through PPC... I think autos.reply.com (carclub, openauto) runs ppc program that contains about 3400 keywords... see www.keywordcompete.com

Regards,
Farooq

I had the exact same experience with IMotors. Thank God my contract expires today.

I had already decided to drop them, but just last week something interesting happened.

I received a lead from the guy that does our phone systems here. I called and asked him what site he went through (since it's a big secret where the leads come from) to submit a lead.

The suprise. He didn't know anything about it. He received an email asking him if he wanted to know what his trade was worth and filled out that form. And then it came through as a lead. Is this terrible or what?

Anyway. Thanks for the article and have a great holiday.

-Warren

Warren Newland, E-Commerce Manager
Clair Auto Group, Clair Acura

Dealer socket was designed by idiots. The displays are childish, remote server access is terrible, it crashes all the time, the software is disfunctional and poorly conceived. You have to click 12 times to send one email.

Jeff,

I am trying to think of the name of a dealer CRM Software and for the life of me I can't.

If I am not mistaking it was created by a dealer, does that ring any bells?

I used it briefly at a small store and it worked really good for the whole store, but this was several years ago.

Any idea?

I posted this earlier today and thought you dealers out there may find this useful:

If there is one thing I have figured out working for multiple dealers, multiple lenders and now multiple CRM companies, no product is any better than the people who use it. What I always find is negative feedback about how bad someone is yet the person posting isn't even a good user of the product.

When I served my dealer community as a lender, I had many times where in just an attempt to improve relations with a store, I would get management to agree to approve anything within set basic parameters, (I won't bore you with the criteria but trust me when I say I took the leash off). Did dealers take advantage of it? No. Why? This may be the central issue.

It seems to me that dealers seldom become and maintain a certain level of progressive thought and execution. What's the proof? I have heard that 80% of all dealerships change their technology vendors when the agreement reached full term. This may not be 100% accurate but I wouldn't doubt it. Recently both VinSolutions and DealerSocket made big time lists of natioanlly recommended publicists for high achievement in growth. Is that proof?

Some online postings will support my claim. Take Kevin's comments from 4/07 on DealerRefresh as support for my claim. He used Higher Gear, then iCar, then VinSolutions. All since 2007? Proof?

Bottom line is that you are only as good as your commitment to utlize fully a product. Cars are complicated things. Do you just pour juice in them and they go? No. Do you really expect your CRM to be simple to? Reality is that you can pull back the filters on anyone's CRM and never follow up on anyone or anything that it tells you to. There is so much horsepower behind these things through automated responders and triggers that the dealership will sell more cars without your staff even using or touching the CRM just beacuse it will farm that hard.

Next time you evaluate a CRM ask yourself the following:

1. Will they support me and proof of it.

2. Does the tool support as much or more of my fixed operations as it does my variable operations? Fixed ops are the key to nearly every store.

3. If it is easy to use a salesperson should be able to make 3 - 5 hash marks for the number of times their fingers had to type something on a keyboard leading up to taking a deal to the tower.

4. Your next CRM should be able to "Stop" or "Cease" it's automated workflow plan (Day 1, 3, 5, 7, etc follow up tasks) tasks or actions anytime someone in the dealership owns and is being responsible for the deal. Many CRMs will fire automated redundant work tasks even though the sales person has already set up a plan of action in the system.

5. Your CRM must and should be certified and real-time integrated with your DMS. This isn't always possible but many CRM providers will disguise the truth to earn your business. A nightly file drop is not what I am talking about here. Pull but not push doesn't cut it either. And just beacuse your DMS and CRM came from the same place doesn't mean it works better. I know one that argues with itself: CRM says, "Sold" tonight but the deal paperwork was finished tomorrow and marked, "Sold" in the DMS. Now reporting is offline for "Sold" units and you have to rectify.

6. How does your CRM show you it's ROI? I only know of one CRM that will literally show you when it's working and can be credited for business. With the average car salesman forgetting their non-sold customer in 2-4 weeks, (Or so I have been told / experienced) your CRM can't, shouldn't and when used right, wont't.

7. I think your CRM should create a culture of tranparency and a culture of accountability. I am not talking about just for the dealership either. Will your CRM display when there is a push error wih the DMS with out burying the info? This little feature will save you painstaking troubles down the road...trust me.

8. Finally, service after the sale. I have only experiencd one CRM that on their own dime partners with you on a regular and consistant basis, even coming to the store to consult on the tool so that your results can be targeted and modified as you grow and change. Most CRM companies focus too much on selling you the product and not ensuring your success. Does your CRM reps pay get negatively affected when your usage drops or you are not performing? That is commitment.

If there is one thing I have figured out working for multiple dealers, multiple lenders and now multiple CRM companies, no product is any better than the people who use it. What I always find is negative feedback about how bad someone is yet the person posting isn't even a good user of the product.

When I served my dealer community as a lender, I had many times where in just an attempt to improve relations with a store, I woudl get management to agree to approve anything within set basic parameters, (I wont bore you with the criteria but trust me when I say I took the leash off). Did dealers take advantage of it? No. Why? This is the central issue.

It seems to me that dealers seldom become and maintain a certain level of progressive thought and execution. What's the proof? I have heard that 80% of all dealerships change their technology vendors when the agreement reached full term. This may not be 100% accurate but I wouldn't doubt it. Recently both VinSolutions and DealerSocket made big time lists of natioanlly recommended publicists for high achievement in growth. Is that proof?

Kevin Frye's comments above further support my claim. He used Higher Gear, then iCar, then VinSolutions. All since 2007. Proof?

Bottom line is that you are only as good as your commitment to utlizer fully a product. Cars are complicated things. You just pour juice in them and they go. DO you really expect your CRM to be simple to?

Next time you evaluate a CRM ask yourself the follwing:

1. Will they support me and proof of it

2. Does the tool support as much or more of my fixed operations as it does my variable operations? Fixed ops are the key to nearly every store.

3. If it is easy to use a salesperson should be able to make 3 - 5 hash marks for the numbe rof times their fingers had to type something on a keyboard leading up to taking a deal to the tower.

4. Your next CRM should be able to "Stop" or "Cease" it's automated workflow plan (Day 1, 3, 5, 7, etc follow up tasks) tasks or actions anytime someone in the dealership owns and is being responsible for the deal. Many CRMs will fire automated redundant work tasks even though the sales person has already set up a plan of action in the system.

5. Your CRM must should be certified and real-time integrated with your DMS. This isn't always possible but many CRM providers will disguise the truth to earn your business. A nightly file drop is not what I am talking about here. Pull but not push doesn't cut it either.

6. How does your CRM show you it's ROI? I only know of one CRM that will literally show you when it's working and can be credited for business. With the average car salesman forgetting their non-sold customer in 2-4 weeks, (Or so I have been told / experienced) your CRM can't, shouldn't and when used right wont't.

7. I think your CRM should create a culture of tranparency and a culture of accountability. I am not talking about just for the dealership either. Will your CRM display when there is a push error wih the DMS with out burying the info? This little feature will save you painstaking troubles down the road...trust me.

8. Finally, service after the sale. I have only experiencd one CRM that on their own dime partners with you on a regular and consistant basis, even coming to the store to consult on the tool so that your results can be targeted and modified as you grow and change. Most CRM companies focus too much on selling you the product and not ensuring your success. Does your CRM reps pay get negatively affected when your usage drops or you are not performing? That is commitment.

We are a new dealership from the ground up and started with the Dealersocket product. I looked at well over 20 CRM's and it came down to two vendors. I felt Dealersocket was the most comprehensive product, priced competitively, and had the best install process and after-install support.

My feelings have so far been backed up by their 4 day in house installation and training. Our staff quickly learned the system and have embraced it for the benefits it gives them. I am also impressed with the responsiveness of their support via email and phone. Although we have only used the system for about a month, I would highly recommend Dealersocket.

I really like DealerSocket, they handle Showroom Traffic, Internet Lead Management, Service, Desking, marketing and CSI. It is very easy to use.

They have helped us increase profits even in this decreasing market.

Any one out there using Dealerpeak? I spoke with a group that had been using it for six months and switched to AVV. They said the front end was great but the processes and triggers would not work correctly. Anyone else have any other experiences?

I have used Dealer Socket, iCar, AVV, Autobase and Buzztrak. In short. EASE OF USE. Seeing all customers, email history, customer history and everything on the fly with 1 or 2 clicks max. Why because salespersons tend not to follow through and BDC reps get busy with a load of leads. EASE OF USE being the key, I would have to go with AVV or Buzztrak as an ILM and let floor, service and follow-up rest in the hands of a CRM.

Check out DealerSoft, LLC of Illinois. Their website is www.KeepYourCustomer.com. They charge $300 per month, $99 more for E-Lead module, no contract, minimal onetime upfront for installation, training, setup. Not a web based program, rather client server based which reduces all the security issues you don't realize you have with all the web based CRM products out there

I'm not familiar with blogs. I hope this post isn't in an inapropriate place. I have some questions.

I'm looking for a CRM with a sales process application, automated follow up, inventory, showrooom control, ILM and CRM features. I don't care if it works with a DMS. I want something to control sales and follow up primarily.

What's out there? How much can I expect to pay? Is it per frnachise, per roof or what?

Great points above. A few points to expand and contrast:

1) ILM's typically lack CRM capabilities too. They typically lack the database of prospects and customers and the ability to market to that database effectively as I understand it. The market is going to converge. Who has the advantage and will win? How?

2) IMO workflow flexibility must be balanced with accountability that managers demand. ILM's allow more flexibility IMO because the Internet department is typiclly small and can held more accountable for results, as opposed to findng where the sales process breaks in the scope of the whole floor sales and sales management force.

4) CRM's have weak email engines, I agree. eMail specialists are preferred to the CRM email tools IMO, because they manage whitelisting and blacklisting issues effectively. It's slightly more difficult for server-based CRM systems to manage opting-in and opting-out IMO. I believe this issue can be fixed, and I'd love to know what CRM's are fixing it in their toolset and email services.

Do you think ILM's don't face so many spamming issues because people have inherently opted from via the internet or by giving their email out via phone typically?

5) This does seem to be an issue CRM companies haven't handles well. I wonder when or if it will change, becuase they are highly complex tools with great value if used effectively. Yet dealers also need to take responsibility for having people who know how to use them effectively. I suspect dealers fail in that capacity more often than they succeed.

One misunderstanding appears to be that ILM does not equal CRM. ILM's are incredible valuable. I too hear iCar is great, and I hear some of the same about AVV. But they are simple ILM's, managing a lead through the sales pipeline. They are marketing engines to target customers and prospects for specific campaigns AND follow them through the floor sales process. In fact, I hear of one dealership using AVV for phone and internet leads, then switching to another CRM provider for floor activity and follow up.

Another reflection on an item above-------------
"I think it also says a lot when there is no contract with iCar while there is a 36 month + agreement with Higher Gear."

It does say a lot, but not what may be implied above. These CRM companies aren't out to ripoff dealers, get their money and pay no attention to them. That's not their intent.

They simply have so much invested in installing and training people on highly sophisticated tools that profitability has to be achieved over a long period of time. In fact, profitability appears quite fleeting in this space, despite what you may hear or believe.

Interesting, automotive CRM appears to be a reflection of CRM's issues in the rest of the world. Siebel has been a disappointment if not a failure for much of corporate America it seems. Achieving great results with all these tools, requires great investment of time. I have come to believe that CRM must be supported by either a) services to help dealers use the tools well or b) services that do it for them.

Reflections appreciated. Full disclosure - I work in a company that owns a CRM company as well as ILM products.

I have to agree with Jeff:

>>Have yet to witness a dealership implement any consistent follow-up with their database of customers; sold, unsold, or service- electronically or otherwise.