Jason wrote....

By that math, we should have sold 700 cars last month!!!

the real math, using incredibly high ratios:

600 ad impressions
10% CTR = 60 visitors
10% conversion = 6 leads
15% closing ratio = 9/10ths of a sale

Try reading the entire thread next time you post Jason....I said that 60 seems awfully high....especially for car sales....so lets say you sold to only 6 people from the ad....etc....what you fail to realize is that it takes only a couple of sales to pay for an entire years worth of advertising....

Bill wrote....

Just cancelled online yellow pages last month. Our dealership experienced 85% service call lead generation from it with only 15% sales. I could only track 2 unit sales from it last year. It was cheap, but in the end it was it worth what we paid for it? No. Negative ROI.

FYI....YOU have no accurate way of tracking the results of YPC....I guarantee you that several of the sales that you had last year were the result of a YPC impression....you just didnt know it....you must buy the call tracking number....THEN you will see just how many phone calls it is generating for you

I dont even work for yellowpages.com anymore....it just amazes me that you guys cant get it through your head that it takes only a couple of sales per YEAR to pay for an entire YEAR worth of advertising....you say the ROI was negative????....you have no idea what you are talking about....and what about all the SERVICE leads....negative ROI....lol

Just cancelled online yellow pages last month. Our dealership experienced 85% service call lead generation from it with only 15% sales. I could only track 2 unit sales from it last year. It was cheap, but in the end it was it worth what we paid for it? No. Negative ROI.

I know this is an old thread, but I can't believe no one jumped on this one:

>That means if 600 people saw your advertisement, you will average a sale to 60 of them.

????? HHUUUHHH????

By that math, we should have sold 700 cars last month!!!

the real math, using incredibly high ratios:

600 ad impressions
10% CTR = 60 visitors
10% conversion = 6 leads
15% closing ratio = 9/10ths of a sale

AB said,

Yellowpages.com had more local business searches than GOOGLE the first quarter of this year...just search google news for 'yellowpages.com'.

This information comes directly from comScore and other sources...not yellowpages.com

joe pistell said,

"Google is the NEW Yellow Pages."

If you are trying to bring people to your website, yellowpages.com will bring people to it, but that is not the purpose of yellowpages.com and buying a listing with us should not be targeted as a primary way of doing this. It is a way of exposing a large number of people to your business and services so they can call you or come on down. If you are looking to drive a large number of people to your website, you should use some form of search engine marketing for your website. We offer clicks packages and guarantee the traffic to your website.

joe also writes,

#2). You have no unique tracking phone number for your YellowPages.com phone number.

that is wrong. we sell call tracking numbers for all listings

he also wrote this...

p.s. AB get your GM to get your web site out of the SEO toilet. Search for yourself, you'll see what I'm seeing (which is no listings)

try searching for TOYOTA, LAS VEGAS NV, on yellowpages.com. and every dealer in town is listed.
Were you confusing SEO with yellowpages.com? SEO refers to search engines not online directories like us. And believe me, if you go to google and type in TOYOTA TUNDRA LAS VEGAS NV, Centennial Toyota is at the very top of the page.

If you advertise your dealership with yellowpages.com, it would be almost impossibe to not pick up a few extra deals every month as a result. There were over 1800 searches on our directory in May for new car dealers in New York City. NYC may not be the best example because a lot of dealership are in smaller regions, but this is a very strongly searched catagory nationwide, no matter where you are. Do you not think you can convert some of those numbers into sales? Absolutely. And the profit, front end or back end, will pay for the price of the ad.

This is my last volley on this debate.

AB writes: "...when it comes to search engines versus directories. One is for website traffic, the other is for phone calls. I'd be stupid to try and increase hits to my site through IYP, but it does bring me the sales."

AB,
#1). No... No you wouldn't be stupid to bring customers to your site from ANY directory.

#2). You have no unique tracking phone number for your YellowPages.com phone number.

END OF DISCUSSION.

Joe
p.s. AB get your GM to get your web site out of the SEO toilet. Search for yourself, you'll see what I'm seeing (which is no listings)

toyota tundra dealers las vegas
toyota camry dealers las vegas
toyota 4runner dealers las vegas
etc...

Jeff Kershner:

And exactly what dealer do you work for "AB"?

Fletcher Jones Toyota

=]

Joe,

Yeah, that's about right. I get almost no clicks through superpages.com and about a 2% click-through on yellowpages.com.

But we're talking apples and oranges here when it comes to search engines versus directories. One is for website traffic, the other is for phone calls. I'd be stupid to try and increase hits to my site through IYP, but it does bring me the sales.

AB,
My IYP traffic is nearly un-measurable.

Our site stats for June 07:
Unique visitors 2,801
Reached us by Direct Address: 72.6%
Reached us by Internet Search Engine: 12.9%
Reached us by External Page (non-search engine): 13.8%

Directories are in the External Page (non-search engine) class.
We have > 2000 pages linking to us in this class. ACTUAL June 07 records are (below) are listed by volume of pages viewed. SuperPages.com sent us one visitor in June.

===traffic logs from NON Search Engine Pages===

126 different pages-url ----->Pages
--singingfish.com ----->110
--dealerclearanceservices.com ----->49
--syracuseautodealers.org/links ----->46
--members.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll ----->20
--autotrader.com/dealers/dda/index.jsp ----->19
--fs10.formsite.com/fs10_app/FormSite ----->18
--typepad.com/t/comments ----->15
--cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx ----->14
--66.249.91.104/translate_c ----->14
--clickonchevy.com/InterstitialWarning.aspx ----->14
--sitidi.net ----->13
--monroetruck.com/StockingDealers.asp ----->12
--customernotification.com/Offer.aspx ----->12
--hotfrogusa.com/Companies/Bresee-Chevrolet ----->11
--webconfs.com/kontera-preview-tool/view.php ----->9
--dealer-magazine.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp ----->9
--webconfs.com/search-engine-spider-simulator.php ----->9
--syrahoo.web-arch.com/hoocat_c_newautos.php3 ----->9
--dealerclearanceservices.com/bresee/black2_awd.htm ----->8
--unicell.com/dealers/dealers_newYork.html ----->7
--carsearch.com/dealers/ny.htm ----->7
--209.85.165.104/search ----->6
--webmail.aol.com/27618/aol/en-us/Mail/DisplayMessage.aspx ----->6
--tags2dir.com/directory/ ----->6
--fs10.formsite.com/breseechevrolet/form241484579/index.htm... ----->6
--news10now.com/content/in_your_neighborhood/calendar/d... ----->5
--autotrader.com/dealers/dda/specials.jsp ----->5
--clickonchevy.com/InterstitialWarning.aspx ----->5
--autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp ----->4
--dpxmldsl.verizon.net/_1_2DNTT1R027EYT5F__vzn.search/searc... ----->4
--dealer-magazine.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp ----->4
--cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp ----->4
--us.f584.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter ----->4
--pingdom.com/tools/fpt/ ----->4
--news10now.com/content/in_your_neighborhood/calendar/defau... ----->3
--translate.google.com/translate ----->3
--us.f396.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter ----->3
--syrahoo.com/hoocat_c_newautos.php3 ----->3
--webconfs.com/kontera-preview-tool/ ----->3
--us.f381.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter ----->3
--autotrader.com/redirect/redirector_link.jsp ----->3
--us.f632.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter ----->3
--dealerrater.com/dealer/Bresee-Chevrolet-review-16024/ ----->3
--cars.com/go/dealersearch/searchResults.jsp ----->3
--carcasher.com/DealerNetwork/New_York/Liverpool/ ----->3
--dpxml.verizon.net/_1_2UNHT7R03IILDUD__vzn.isp/search/web/... ----->2
--my.starware.com/dp/search ----->2
--tags2dir.com/directory/category/cars/ ----->2
--notify.volvoit.com/notify-VCNstrict ----->2
--local.com/Syracuse,_NY/chevy_dealers/7748405/Bresee_C... ----->2
--dojyo.com/blog/sr4_diary.cgi ----->2
--dealerclearanceservices.com ----->2
--leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp ----->2
--dealerclearanceservices.com/bresee/direct_tv_van_blue... ----->2
--news10now.com/content/in_your_neighborhood/calendar/ ----->2
--172.16.40.12:15871/cgi-bin/afterWorkOptions.cgi ----->2
--carfax.com/used_car_classifieds/contactDealer.cfdo ----->2
--dna5.dealer.com/views/leads/overview ----->2
--10.11.0.250:15871/cgi-bin/afterWorkOptions.cgi ----->2
--autotrader.com/fyc/ncal.jsp ----->2
--dealerclearanceservices.com/bresee3/overview.htm ----->2
--local.com/results.aspx ----->2
--carsearch.com/dealers/dealerres.html ----->1
--urltrends.com ----->1
--randomwebsite.net/random/ ----->1
--dealershiplistings.com/dealers/chevrolet.htm ----->1
--carcasher.com/DealerNetwork/New_York/L/ ----->1
--newyork.yankees.mlb.com/search/toolbar_results.jsp ----->1
--my43.tv/big_list/business_stores/auto_repair.html ----->1
--answers.com/chevrolet's%20%20Supply%20and%20Demand ----->1
--whois.sc/usedkarking.com ----->1
--referenceusa.com/bd/detail.asp ----->1
--superpages.com/yellowpages/C-Car+Dealers/PI-101528/S-... ----->1

Brandon -

I understand what you're saying about it being a press release, but notice that all the data comes from comScore - the authority when it comes to internet rankings.

I'm not saying put all your eggs in one basket, that's just plain bad business. I do SEO & SEM with Google & Yahoo!, and listing placement with Superpages.com and YellowPages.com. We really need to do all of the above, or we're missing out on a considerable part of the local market.

I've done quite a bit of research into this whole internet marketing thing, and about 2/3 of the population uses search engines and 1/3 uses search directories. So by just doing one, I'm cheating myself. Most of what I get from the directories is walk-ins and calls for directions to my lot, and what I get from the search engines is people looking at my stock on the website.

I have my telesales department do follow ups with the people that submit their information via my website (SEM/SEO), and my salesmen do their job with the IYP. Both are working very well, but my conversion ratio on IYP is much higher.

AB,

"Yellowpages.com had more local business searches than GOOGLE the first quarter of this year...just search google news for 'yellowpages.com'."

I find this hard to believe. If you do a search on google news for YellowPages.com I see a press release. I'm not going to take a press release from Yellowpages.com as the final word on who is getting more local business searches.

It would be virtually impossible to see how many local business searches are being conducted on Google as compared to yellowpages anyway. Someone on Google may just search painters, see a local painters ad and complete their transaction. Not every local Google search is "Painters, Los Angeles." You cant really compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges here.

I'd like to weigh-in on the anti-Yellowpages.com side of the debate.

Google is the NEW Yellow Pages.
Invest "other" ad monies into Search Engine Optimization... NOW.

Is anyone looking at their site traffic stats to see WHERE your visitors are finding you from? I am about 1000:1 Google search hits vs Superpages.com.

I am in a small market in upstate NY (Syracuse). We average 3,000 unique visitors per month, 30% are from search engine queries (1,000 unique users per month). Of that 1,000 > 70% are from classic directory like searches (name, brand, location).

Is anyone listening to the incoming calls to see the "quality" of the up generator? We used callbright and all I hear is classic phone directory questions (what are your hours? is Bill in? etc...).

Because it's "cheap" is Yellowpages.com & Superpages.com a value? Speaking as a past VZ rep, Sales reps are trained to run the classic ROI pitch were your ad spending trickles down in to revenues. The buyer thinks "it's only $350..." and the buyers optimism leads them to a positive conclusion. I'm an old coot, been self-employed for decades and have been thru several recessions. When business is bad, you learn how to ask tough questions and pass over misc. spending.

In my world, there are 2 users of a Directory. Almost all are looking for your phone number and the remaining few are "no gross grinders". So, if we're fishing for "no gross grinders", do they care about TOP of the listing?

NOT.

Action:
Move all marketing efforts out to SEO.

Results Speak for themselves:
Competitors:
%20%20phoenix%20%20ny&form=QBRE&go.x=10&go.y=10

FORM=CBPW&first=1&noredir=1

Compete other markets:
1&q=CHEVY%20CARS%20IN%20ROCHESTER%20NEW%20YORK&spell=1

Expand your market to your REGION:
GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-21,GGLJ:en&q=used+chevy+avalanche+upstate+ny

Just my $0.02
Joe

How much incremental traffic could Yellowpages.com push my way?

Depends on the geography you advertise in and how high you are up on the page.

How many people are actually visiting these sites like Yellowpages.com and searching like they were on Yahoo or Google?

Yellowpages.com had more local business searches than GOOGLE the first quarter of this year...just search google news for 'yellowpages.com'.

Does it make sense to spend the $350.00 a month for top listings in Yellowpages.com?

That's a big 'YES'.

Could I benefit from being listed in the top placement of Yellowpages.com since no one in my region is currently taking advantage of the service?

Another big yes. People are searching for your business right now. If you're not there, they'll go to who IS there. If nobody has taken advantage of it in your area so far, then get in early while the getting is good.

I purchased a listing from yellowpages.com and was the first in my category - now I'll always have the option of being #1 in my category until the end of the internet. If my AT&T rep came to me 20 years ago and offered me the guaranteed first spot in the phone book forever...I think I'd be a millionaire by now.

Keep in mind with any internet yellow pages that it's designed to get us phone calls and walk-ins, not click-thrus.

I advertise on both superpages.com and yellowpages.com. They are competitors, but nobody in their right mind will go to yellowpages.com and find what they're searching for, and then go to superpages.com and do the same thing - they've got two completely separate customer bases to bring into my dealership.

Yellowpages.com is out performing superpages.com, but I'm keeping both as I'm definitely seeing a return.

So look at it this way....It costs you less than $200 per month to be exposed to over 600 people looking for your services. This is an easy way to pick up a few extra deals every month. The return on the investment is very strong. The 600 searches were in Syracuse NY. That is only one metro area. Some metro areas have much higher search results. For example, veterinary clinics in Minneapolis st paul were searched last month by over 1600 people. Sadly, there are only 3 vets that are advertising in that category. Do you think they are getting business from it? Absolutely. The numbers are too large to fail. If you own a business, there is a couple of things that you certainly should consider. First, build a web site and get on the net. Second, advertise your business on a business directory. If you don't, you are truly being left behind.

I actually work for yellowpages.com and I was in the car business for 4 years prior. Lets face it guys...sales is for the most part a numbers game. The more people you are exposed to, the more people you are going to sell to. He is some basic facts. In may there were over 600 people who went onto our site looking for new car dealers. The national average conversion is 10%. That means if 600 people saw your advertisement, you will average a sale to 60 of them. Honestly, that may seem a little high, especially for car sales. So lets say that you only sold 6 people off the ad. The ad costs less than $200 a month. Lets assume the profit from each sale to be only $200. $200 x 6 = $1200. This is why yellowpages.com works for all types of businesses.

They're hitting us pretty hard right now too. They've come down on their prices so much that it almost is a no-brainer, but I still feel like there are more worthwhile places to spend that money.

We advertise in Superpages.com and get a nearly unmeasuable amount of click thrus.

The traffic that I see comes from several phone book sites comes from name searches for our name.

I use to work in sales at Verizon Yellow Pages. The pitch you're hearing is the old Yellow Pages pitch with an internet spin on it.

I will not be renewing our SuperPages.com contract for next year. I'll be moving our efforts & spending out to micro sites.

g'luck,
joe

In the 4 years since I've been here I've cut Yellow Pages PRINT ad spending by 90%. Currently, We're an advertiser in Superpages/yellowpages.com. I just looked at May 07, their click thrus were right up there with DogPile.com (10 hits p/ month). And... DogPile.com is free.

- Engine =May Traffic
- Google =1344
- Yahoo! =311
- MSN Search =211
- Google (Images) =168
- Unknown search engines =87
- AOL =82
- Netscape =10
- Dogpile =7
- Ask =7
- Earth Link =4
- Mamma =2
- AltaVista =2
- Lycos =1
- Search.com =1
- MetaBot =1
- Excite =1

Jeff,

Check out how the YellowPage reps responded to our comments on xbmanx.com post: Internet Yellow Pages SUCK!

xBMANx

Jeff- I think you are on target. This is another illustration of a medium that is bygone now trying desperately to hang on to the market place in some capacity. Rather than showing what they actually send you from a leds standpoint, they try to show you this vast exposure you will receive to everyone looking for a new car. I could never tell just HOW many leads I received from them (perhaps because they know their ROI isn't there compared to other online advertising).

I for one, cancelled our superpages listing and am using the money to be "The Last Man Standing."

I don't think the traffic is there, and consequently, there is low value. If it were $500/year for the superpages, I would do it. It is not worth that much to me as most of our shoppers are looking for info from KBB, Edmunds, the manufacturer, etc. Perhaps the service/parts guys ould benefit, but not sales.

I have mixed experience here. When I worked at a dealership, the owner wanted an ad in the phone book, and an online placement, but ended up canceling them because we received no trackable traffic. Now, at a different business, we used superpages PPC ads and those converted at a profitable level, but a bit above search engines. It took a few rounds of tweaking to get the CPA at an appropriate level.

Jeff, are you talking about the print version or PPC on yellow pages... As online most yellow pages have PPC above the fold... for PPC, yellow pages should defiantly be part of your local marketing. As local search from Google and yahoo is only 2 years old and the age group you target my not know about Google local or Google maps... you will find the older generation going to online yellow pages then doing a Google search.

Now as far as PPC conversion rate goes... for the dealer I work with... it averages to 4% for Superpages and 2% for DexOnline.com for online lead forms... I do not have access to phone tracking so can't comment on the phone up part.

As far as print version goes... I'm not 100% if that $500-1200 a month is worth it... It be better to spend on online advertising... I live in a apartment complex and last time when they delivered the pages it just sat at the front door... pissing me off every time I went by with all the trees killed to make them... recycled paper but still... the energy it takes... the gas burned to deliver and haul the stuff...

here is an old article from 2004 on yellow pages beating se's...

Many businesses are opting out on phonebook ads, yellow page.com ads and just taking the minimum listing. Budgeting ad dollars in these publications are producing diminishing returns. $300.00-500.00 a month your looking at saving 5-6 K per year, 60 k over 10 years for something that provides diminishing returns??

Most younger people do not use this tool and older people are more conservative with their spending habits and also rely on established relationships with companies in the community they have been doing business with.

When was the last time you looked for a number and called 1411 and you were asked what ad made the biggest impression on your decision?

A comment on a Grok post about this subject cites a quote that eBay spends "less than $25 million a quarter" which leads me to think that eBay spends far more than $25 million a fiscal year as you suggest, Jeff. Regardless, the general consensus appears to be that this will not affect Google to the extent that eBay suggests. In fact, with no Google advertising I wonder what sort of negative impact it will have on eBay Motors which as you suggest already received minimal ad word advertising.

Ebay once was the Goliath of the net. CEO Meg Whitman killed ebay when she raised listing fees hgher and higher (and higher) there by killing her base.

She is about 1 step from making Ebay extinct. She deserves the boot.

Joe

Quite a few eBay affiliates run Adwords for eBay also... so that helps them cover lot of keywords. I wish I was one their top affiliates earning over 100K a month... hey may be I can be... by targeting motors...

Google is just everywhere... in advertising... I can run online ads, print ads and radio ads... and soon TV spots... and all with a precision control... what more do I need...