J.D.

Myth #1: Thousand of Indexed Pages are Necessary.
I agree it is a Myth. I was pointing out from our experience that a 4 page site can out rank a much larger site. It is the content that is a factor. Which ties into your Myth #4: Flash Websites cannot be optimized. You can have all the relevant content and 1,000 page flash site, and the search engines wouldn't know it from a 1 page flash site. The technical part about it is that the huge flash site typically sits within 1 HTML page. So dealers with HUGE impressive flash sites typically have 1 HTML page to optimize (if allowed by the vendor). Thus making it very difficult to rank highly on Organic searches.

Myth #3: SEM Certification Means Better SEO
I agree with you in that it makes absolutely no difference to organic marketing as now pointed out by Google. It is geared towards the PPC. I would trust that someone with these Certs has enough experience with Adwords and AdSense and would know more than someone without one. I agree it is used today more for marketing purposes than it should be.

What you call "self promotion" is merely my experiences and opinions and from what I know to work and not work. I have been in the web development/SEO industry for 12 years and so I only speak and demonstrate from exprience. Sorry for any self promotion.

Thanks for the topic J.D.

Hi All-
I sent a question to Google about the certification, asking point-blank if the training and certification can benefit someone optimizing a website. Here is the part of the response that applies:

"I can assure you that the organic search results are completely separate from AdWords and the Google AdWords Professionals program.  Certification and Qualified Status will in no way affect the organic search results you see on Google.com. "

It was not the definitive answer I was looking for, but it at least touches on my question while side-stepping it at the same time.

* * *

David-
While I discourage self promotion on open threads like these, you make some points...

David: "Myth #1: Thousand of Indexed Pages are Necessary
Yes and no."

Reply: Sounds like you're agreeing, but I wasn't completely clear about the "no" part of it. As you said, "These sites consist of 4-5 pages and out rank other larger sites."

David: "People do search for new cars by year and model. They want to know everything about that vehicle so Micro Sites target that audience."

Reply: I agree that people look for cars. Some. I don't like it when companies point to their abilities to get ranked for long tail searches as the proof of their prowess. For dealer websites, you go after the general, high volume searches first, then the long tail afterwards.

Microsites are a whole other topic, but we can discuss it at another time.

David: "Myth #3: SEM Certification Means Better SEO
Not true."

Reply: ?
Are you agreeing that the myth is not true?

David: "Myth #4: Flash Websites cannot be optimized"
Again, are you agreeing with what most others have been saying?

I'm sorry, David, but it just feels as if you saw the topic, scanned some of the points, and repeated what others were saying, throwing in the occasional references to your products. Then, you finish it off with a full two paragraph pitch that is completely off topic. I'm not sure how to respond, but thanks for posting.

* * *

Umer and Joe-
Thank you!

Had a nice chat with JD on the phone yesterday, he said it well...

"...just because you have a drivers licence dosen't mean you qualify for to drive for NASCAR"

That about nails it.

Joe

re: PPC certification

JD, agreed using PPC certification to prove SEO knowledge is misleading... same as reading some forums or seo book to say you know SEO.

Certification alone does not mean you know any thing it is the experience that counts at the end. I'll work with a experienced individual over a certified individual any day.

Myth #1: Thousand of Indexed Pages are Necessary
Yes and no. An ideally optimized Micro Site can be indexed above sites with more pages. For example if you Google "2007 Tahoe" our client, Courtesy Chevrolet is the #2 naturally ranked site on Google out of 4.4 Million pages. Another example would be Google Keyword "Mercedes GL450" #3 Site and Google Keyword "2007 Dodge Caliber" #4 Site. These sites consist of 4-5 pages and out rank other larger sites.

Myth #2: People search for individual cars or by VIN
People do search for new cars by year and model. They want to know everything about that vehicle so Micro Sites target that audience. If you want a 2007 Tahoe, you wouldn't search for a chevy dealer, you would search for "2007 tahoe", or "2007 tahoe, vegas" or whatever town you live in. Most people type in the city or state as a way to find the best priced vehicle. If your site is one of the top few on the naturally ranked sites, chances are they will click on your site. You hope they find what they were looking for and have an easy way to contact you.

Myth #3: SEM Certification Means Better SEO
Not true. I know many excellent SEO guys that do not carry this certification. It really does not mean anything. The proof is in the pudding. If you have the time to learn how to effectively run PPC campaigns, by all means go for it yourself. But know that it is a daily task and not an easy one. It can get expensive if you do not know what you are doing. My suggestion is to seek out the professionals and make sure your keywords, messages and web sites (Micro Sites) are optimized for that keyword or phrase.

Myth #4: Flash Websites cannot be optimized
Flash sites cannot be optimized because there is nothing for the search engines to consider relevant content. There are many factors that search engines consider and content is high on the list. It is very, very difficult to gain high ranking in a competitive market with a full flash site, especially a site with poor optimization. HTML content is key.

Dealer sites are one site among many and you need to stand above your competition. Build a farm of Micro Sites, cross link them to each other and your main dealer site and watch what happens to your Google ranking and leads. YOUR leads, not third party pay them $20-$30 per lead, but in-house no cost leads. You will gain more exposure to the people searching for your vehicles, more in-house leads so you cut down that cost, and higher closing because you already know what vehicle the person is researching to buy.

I saw a post about exclusivity, and let me tell you that we offer that with our Micro Sites. This is a huge advantage to the dealer. Exclusive deal: Cannot be the same Make and Model Micro Site as a close competitor. I will not sell the same Micro Site to your competitor down the road or 10 miles away. SEO, SEM, PPC & Micro Sites are all important factors of a successful online marketing campaign.

Joe-
Joe: "Your opinon is based on CURRENT SERP RESULTS. Right now, any dealer that puts forth ANY paid SEO effort is seeing big ROI. "

Reply: ANY is a big word. It's all relative. I visited your website and it seems like you are probably one of the "good guys" in this. Surely you have gone up against companies charging hundreds or thousands per month and not getting results that your own service gets for less. "ANY paid SEO" -- too emcompassing. "ANY GOOD paid SEO" -- I would agree with you.

* * *

Joe: "It's easy to see, killer SERPs now happen with little effort, the real SEO war looms on the horizon. You'll be preaching the "Long Tail Gospel" in less than 18 months."

Reply: Now you're making sense. In fact, I think 18 months is a conservative estimate. The only thing I would mention... nevermind, let's just talk about it on the phone. This website doesn't need a couple of SEOs talking tech stuff. I just want to make sure dealers, ISMs, etc., know enough to not fall for the scams.

James-

Welcome to the forum!

James: "In your post, you boast of your SEO knowledge and consider yourself an expert on the subject. Are you Google Certified? If not, why?"

Reply: My SEM team and a member of my SEO team is certified. I've taken the course myself, but the certification is attached to AdWords accounts that I monitor but that I have the SEM team manage.

It's a great program. I simply disagree with companies using it as a credential for SEO when it's an SEM certification.

* * *

James: "If I'm choosing between two companies to do SEO for my dealerships, one is certified, one is not, why would I choose the one that is not?"

Reply: Assuming that their qualifications and references were the same, why not take the one who is AdWords certified. One note -- the companies I've experienced who brag about their certification are the ones that aren't placing in the organic SERPs. I can't say it enough -- check references. A fishing license doesn't make for a good fisherman, but it helps.

* * *

James: "Also, what results have dealers you've worked with experienced? I keep running into examples from vendors in limited markets, but have only had one vendor explain what SEO is vs. telling me 'we are the best'."

Reply: Dealerrefresh is all about knowledge. I cannot use it to tout my own services nor as a client search board. The article was intended for general SEO knowledge so dealers know the scams that are coming at them at an increasingly rapid rate.

Please call me if you have questions.

re: Small Site vs. Large Site

JD,
Your opinon is based on CURRENT SERP RESULTS. Right now, any dealer that puts forth ANY paid SEO effort is seeing big ROI.

It's easy to see, killer SERPs now happen with little effort, the real SEO war looms on the horizon.

Summary:
You'll be preaching the "Long Tail Gospel" in less than 18 months.

Joe
p.s. 99.96% of the dealers don't know they're going to have to include a new entry on the expense spread sheet titled "SEO".

To The King:

Myth #1: Thousand of Indexed Pages are Necessary

The King: "If you are going for a small set of keywords this myth could very well be true, however if you would like to achieve high rankings for more than a couple of keywords the number of relevant pages that you have in the index does in fact increase overall coverage and therefore increases a websites chance of being found. With that said I would say that thousands of unique relevant indexed pages are very much a necessity."

Reply: It's just not true. Having 20-120 high quality pages is plenty in the automotive industry. Here's an example based upon data collected from seodigger.com (great resource, btw):

Chevy store A - 72 pages indexed, 385 top 20 rankings
Chevy store B - 1,420 pages indexed, 16 top 20 rankings

Heck, look at Jeff's site: 112 pages indexed, 287 top 20 rankings

If you're arguing that thousands of pages are better than having less than 5 pages, you're right (another reason I don't like 100% flash sites). We're talking automotive SEO, not Wikipedia or Amazon.com SEO. 20-120 is plenty. The rest is worthless.

* * *

The King: "On a side note: Auto dealer websites often contain indexed pages (usually inventory related pages that no longer exist) that should be removed from the index. In cases such as these website providers should ensure requests for the page return an HTTP status code of either 404 or 410, block the page using a robots.txt file or block the page using a meta noindex tag."

Reply: Agreed. There are other methods, but your's is definitely one way.

* * *

Myth #3: SEM Certification Means Better SEO.

The King: "This could very well be true but certification does provide validity to the company’s claim that they know what they’re doing. If anything it without a doubt proves that they have some product knowledge and at least took the time to get certified. If given the choice of between a “Board Certified” physician and a midwife to deliver a baby, who would you choose?"

Reply: SEM knowledge definitely has benefits. Certifications as described in the article are minor, minor, minor indicators as I expressed to Uber in my previous reply. It isn't SEO Certification the way some companies portray.

If given the choice between a "Board Certfied" dentist and a midwife who has delivered babies all of her life, who would you choose?

Side Note: I never said we weren't certified. We just don't pretend that it has anything to do with real automotive website optimization. My problem is with the misuse, not with the certification itself.

* * *

Myth #4: Flash Websites cannot be optimized

The King: "There is a way to optimize flash sites however most dealer website providers do not provide or allow the access needed to do this ethically. Until I see a TK, BZ, Dealer Skins or any other dealer website provider that uses flash provide and accurate html representation of a flash based site along with a valid robots.txt file that disallows the flash pages from getting indexed this myth is not a myth at all, it is fact. "

Reply: Again, full flash doesn't work. Having strong HTML content does. Mixing flash with HTML is ideal. The "myth" is that flash websites cannot be optimized. The truth is that they can be using real HTML content. The proof is in the pudding, my friend, and I would go head to head with any 100% html site any day.

* * *

The King: "Lastly I feel that Dealer Refresh should add a new rule banning the use of one’s personal opinions to be fact and remove comments like this for the site all together. If the dealers are 1-2 years behind, posts like this will only add to the confusion and that’s not what DealerRefresh is all about."

Reply: If you read regularly, the whole idea of this website is to post opinions and have an open arena where ideas can be hammered out to solve industry problems. Even after the article, I noted a few points in subsequent comments where I clarified my wording and agreed with other people's opinions. That's the point. There are no need for insults

Regarding rules, please read rule #3 regarding no anonymous posts.

JD,

Thanks for starting this discussion!

In your post, you boast of your SEO knowledge and consider yourself an expert on the subject. Are you Google Certified? If not, why?

If I'm choosing between two companies to do SEO for my dealerships, one is certified, one is not, why would I choose the one that is not?

Also, what results have dealers you've worked with experienced? I keep running into examples from vendors in limited markets, but have only had one vendor explain what SEO is vs. telling me 'we are the best'.

King-
I'll reply to your post in just a bit.

BPA-
Yep. Good point.

Umer-
There are companies out there who are blatantly using the certifications in misleading ways. Some of their sales reps say that the certifications give them an insider's advantage, that their clients are rewarded in organic searches BECAUSE of the certification, not just based upon knowledge learned.

Understanding SEM is useful knowledge for SEO. The majority of the training for Google Certification is not SEO related. Here's a breakdown, according to the specs provided by Google:

1: Introduction to AdWords - 67 Minutes - discusses the basics, how to log in, policies, pricing and payment information, etc. - No SEO benefit

2: Getting Started - 56 Minutes - They discuss selecting keywords and writing targeted ad text for 16 of those minutes... good for SEO

3: Targeting - 58 Minutes - Mostly about site targeting, languages, etc. Arguably 5 minutes worth of "Keyword Matching Options" can be a little beneficial for SEO, but just barely

4: Costs and Billing - 34 Minutes - No SEO benefit

5: Tracking Ad Performance - 1h31m - some basic SEO-pertinent information, such as ROI, but 52 of those minutes are on troubleshooting, 10 minutes are on creating reports, etc. - we'll give it the benefit of the doubt and say half an hour is good for SEO (though that's definitely a stretch)

6: Optimizing Ad Performance - 37 Minutes - THERE's the WORD! Oh, wait, it's not for organic listings. According to the training, "Optimization: creating/editing keywords and ad text(or other parts of the account) to improve the performance of AdWords ads." Not quite for organic. Still, there is some useful information that can help in SEO, so we'll count 30 minutes as working towards the cause. Stuff such as "Adjusting CPCs to Maximize ROI" will not help in SEO.

7: The AdWords Toolbox - 14 Minutes - 10 minutes worth of SEO-valid content

8: Google Analytics - 15 Minutes - I do recommend Google Analytics or some other analytics for SEO purposes. Absolutely. This basic overview is a good start, so we'll count it.

9: Managing Client Accounts - 37 Minutes - No SEO benefits.

Grand Total: 1hr46min of basic SEO-valid training. Of course, you could spend an hour and 46 minutes on seochat.com, digitalpoint forums, or any number of true SEO websites and learn 10 times as much.

I'm not disagreeing with you, Uber, as much as I am pointing out that waving PPC certification around like a Google-SEO-Goldenchild flag is misleading. It's like someone taking a driver's ed course and using it as a credential to drive in NASCAR. Automotive SEO is so complex and the market is one of the most competitive. Using the certifications to prove SEO prowess is a misleading tactic. I look for results, not logos.

Or you can just call people out on it and put blogs to use like they were originally designed.

JD, great article, but I personally think MYTH #3 is actually a fact. Adwords and Yahoo certification defiantly means better SEO service. As you have to be knowledgeable about conversion to gain any benefit from SEO... plus you end up using lot of Google and Yahoo tools to help you along with SEO. SEO expert has to be intimately familiar with google keywords tool. PPC programs help one understand what keywords you would target for SEO. PPC adverts writing can help you write a better directory listing... optimizing your PPC landing page is somewhat same as optimizing for SEO... why not kill two birds with same stone... When looking for SEO service one should look for a company that has PPC certification and actively manages campaigns. As SEO and PPC overlap so much...

However it is outrageous when SEO companies label PPC position one as organic position... or label that they get some special insides into SEO from PPC certification.

Claimed Myths More Factual Than Comments

Myth #1: Thousand of Indexed Pages are Necessary

If you are going for a small set of keywords this myth could very well be true, however if you would like to achieve high rankings for more than a couple of keywords the number of relevant pages that you have in the index does in fact increase overall coverage and therefore increases a websites chance of being found. With that said I would say that thousands of unique relevant indexed pages are very much a necessity.

On a side note: Auto dealer websites often contain indexed pages (usually inventory related pages that no longer exist) that should be removed from the index. In cases such as these website providers should ensure requests for the page return an HTTP status code of either 404 or 410, block the page using a robots.txt file or block the page using a meta noindex tag.

Myth #3: SEM Certification Means Better SEO.

This could very well be true but certification does provide validity to the company’s claim that they know what they’re doing. If anything it without a doubt proves that they have some product knowledge and at least took the time to get certified. If given the choice of between a “Board Certified” physician and a midwife to deliver a baby, who would you choose?

Myth #4: Flash Websites cannot be optimized

There is a way to optimize flash sites however most dealer website providers do not provide or allow the access needed to do this ethically. Until I see a TK, BZ, Dealer Skins or any other dealer website provider that uses flash provide and accurate html representation of a flash based site along with a valid robots.txt file that disallows the flash pages from getting indexed this myth is not a myth at all, it is fact.

Here is Google's take on flash...

"You may want to consider creating HTML copies of these Flash pages for our crawler. If you create HTML copies, please be sure to include a robots.txt file that disallows the Flash pages in order to ensure that our crawler doesn't recognize these pages as duplicate content."

Latest Google Search Documentation Updates | Google Search Central | What's new | Google for Developers

Click to expand...

"Flash is inherently a visual medium, and Googlebot doesn't have eyes. Googlebot can typically read Flash files and extract the text and links in them, but the structure and context are missing. Moreover, textual contents are sometimes stored in Flash as graphics, and since Googlebot doesn't currently have the algorithmic eyes needed to read these graphics, these important keywords can be missed entirely. All of this means that even if your Flash content is in our index, it might be missing some text, content, or links. Worse, while Googlebot can understand some Flash files, not all Internet spiders can."

http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2007/07/best-uses-of-flash.html

Click to expand...

Lastly I feel that Dealer Refresh should add a new rule banning the use of one’s personal opinions to be fact and remove comments like this for the site all together. If the dealers are 1-2 years behind, posts like this will only add to the confusion and that’s not what DealerRefresh is all about.

Useful SEOBlogs

Given the recent buzz on SEO, I thought itd be helpful to start compiling a list of good SEO blogs. Email me if you think of any others to add.

SEOMoz - well written informative
SEOBook - ibid
Matt Cutts - Googles point guy on sear...

Brandon-
Thank you for the kind words!

* * *

Jeff-
You're absolutely right. I believe in some flash mixed with true SEO content, namely good HTML content. The "ways to allow search engines to read flash" are bad, which is why I didn't recommend them. I should have been more clear -- thank you saying it for me!

* * *

Jake-
Same as with my comment to Jeff, I agree with you. The balance between some flash for better conversions and some HTML for better rankings is a tough formula to master.

* * *

Joe-
Very interesting point. I have been working on a "pay for performance" model for SEO. This is not the place to pitch it -- self promotion is not what dealerrefresh is about -- but I agree there should be some measurements and accountability in the industry.

* * *

Jeff again-
Yep. THAT's the right plan that dealers should employ. We are seeing the beginning of the trend right here. More dealers are becoming aware of SEO. Soon, they will become more knowledgeable or hire those who are. I can't wait!

* * *

Lau-
Excellent points! Now I feel really silly for not being more clear with my opinions of flash. My condemnation was really directed towards the "majors" in the industry who use completely HTLM sites that do not compel the visitors to submit leads. These templated, boring, poorly designed sites get visitors, but cannot turn the visitors into leads.

I do believe in some flash for better conversion, but not those that become a distraction and DEFINITELY not 100% flash sites. As I said, the recipe for the right mixture is the key to get the traffic and convert them to leads.

Myth #3: SEM Certification Means Better SEO

There is no industry standards established. This does not mean there will not be standards in the future; developing an industry wide acceptable certification would be difficult but not impossible and it will come.

I’d like to see some independent organization rate the training programs and help integrate an experience component to the certification. As the ecommerce industry grows there will be a need for formalizing standards to manage the huge volume, deleting useless information and filtering the good from evil as they say

There will be more and more SEM training and certification courses popping up as the need for search engine marketing experts grow. The good ones will rise to the top as people who took the courses get hired by leading search marketing firms and the others will struggle. Experience will always trump a certification so people should make sure they develop a portfolio of their work.

There is a good forum on this: http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/member.php?u=76

The guy is Aaron Wall SEObook: We Love SEO

There will always be a wild web however it will probably not be the one we use today as this will become “more sophisticated as they say” which means more regulated and taxed!!!

Myth #4: Flash Websites cannot be optimized

Websites that focus on flash technology but really have no substance in terms of content or message distracts from the message the dealer wises to send out are an insult to the client and a waste of time and money.

This is also true for websites that focus on flashy technology that doesn't work properly or causes the site to be slow-functioning.

Anything that diminishes from your visitor's ability to have a wonderful, effortless experience in using your site

When you look at a site that Jeff created, looking out of the living room window at the image of the vehicle parked in the driveway. There was no flash or “Pimp” here; just the message clear, concise and too the point.

Today with video no longer on the horizon but here amongst us why bother with flash? It is old school already.

Show your prospective customers what you can do for them, and not overwhelm them with too much garbage and information. You want them to have a reason to contact you to learn more and want to visit you free of the worry they are going to be attacked when they walk in the store by a “hungry lion” out for the immediate kill, pounded into submission and bullied in to a vehicle they did not really want at a price they did not have in their budget.

Here's a twist on this theme.

It's a battle out there...
The SEO firm you hire is fighting against your competitor's SEO firm. Do you have an exclusive?

You hire the SEO firm to place unique information in your site to elevate/improve your search results. Should your SEO firm offer this same marketing package to your near-by competitor, then you've dilluted your ROI.

I am building a SEO measurement tool.

Question1:
Would a SEO Marketing Measurement Tool be a help to a Dealer?
I see a need to use the tool to pay your SEO on click thrus (woa... wailing and knashing of teeth heard from within the SEO firms)

Question2:
Would a SEO want to be paid on performance? (more wailing and gringing of teeth)

IMO:
I know it takes months of SEO work to produce results. A SEO should become an exclusive marketing partner with the dealer. It is my job (as a SEO) to CRUSH my fellow SEOs in what ever territory I am contracted in. Because of this, I want to be REWARDED for performance.

To my knowledge, no 3rd party measurement tool exists. I prefer a SEO business model that is more transparent and I'd like to empower the performance pay model.

Joe

SEO for auto dealers is a big problem as I've also found out recently. There seem to be a lot of companies out there who are trying to take advantage of the fact that most dealers don't know much about proper SEO tactics, and I've had several clients who have wasted a lot of money on these companies. At the request of one of my dealers I actually spoke with a PPC management company a few weeks ago and was appalled by the lack of knowledge and how they tried to snowball me into signing up with them. I wrote a blog post about it and details of that experience can be seen here.

My advice to dealers considering use of an SEO company is in line with what JD writes. Check references, but pay more attention to the websites that are not given as references. Any company is going to have well optimized sites, but are they consistent with all of their sites, or only for their references? Knowledge is power, and places like Dealer Refresh are a great resource to gain insight into topics that you may not fully understand.

I also have to agree with Jeff in that "a properly coded HTML website will consistently out rank a Flash designed website competing for the same keywords." Sure, Flash is visually appealing, but when you go overboard it begins to hurt the search engine rankings. Personally I stay away from it as much as possible. A little Flash here and there is OK but we've had much better results (from both SE crawlers and car shoppers) on simple designs. It makes for a tough call from the dealer point of view because Flash does make a site look a lot better, but the SE's have a way to go before they get their "eyes".

Fantastic, informative & Dead-On post!

Heyy :]
Someone talk to me

Heyy bitchh :]

Hello Everyone,
Personally being in the industry since 2003 on the Website/ SEO/ SEM side the one major thing I found is customer service is always the number 1 priority, as well as make sure to be open and honest about the products and services being offered and their capabilities. I believe the company I am currently with has addressed this issue by having customer service and support staff available 24 hours a day/ 7 days a week. Happy New Year!

Ron

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