Paul- It's the internet business, 100% of your customers are anonymous before they raise a hand. I'm not sure why you are so defensive. Hopefully your autoresponder doesn’t demand phone, email, ssn and birthdate prior to a reply regarding your inquiry

The reason that my prodding continues to justify your response is irrespective of my name and company affiliation. The beauty of my anonymity is that you can focus on what's being said rather than who is saying it. Truth of it is that nothing I have ever posted here has any affiliation to the company I work for.

There was a post a few months back about image control online. It was a great read Jennifer, you really ought to check it out. I hope you weren't counting on any referrals from the hundreds of ATC reps that visit with your prospective clients. Hmm...What do you suppose happens the next time that an ATC rep who reads this blog happens to be sitting across the desk from a GM when their TKCarsites homepage is experiencing difficulty?

Paul, when I'm wearing the company logo you can be the customer who is always right and I'll do my best to agree with you whenever possible and give you warm fuzzies about me and the company, but I think this site is meant to uncover obstacles and share observations and opinions. If revealing my company affiliation hinders my ability to express an opinion openly than I am in effect doing a disservice to you by supplying you with that information, wouldn't you agree?

I prefer my credibility to be determined by my observations. Case in point, you responded to my query because the facts were clear and undeniable so you offered a response to explain a glaring contradiction on your part that is damaging to your overall position. You are questioning my credibility and why again does it matter who I work for?

Who am I?

Joe L. "Vendor"- empowered by anonymity, I face no irrational repercussions and I can sharpen your saw rather than kiss your ass. It may not feel as good, but this is a better deal for you.

I have more to say about the paper you wrote and I’m feverishly working on an anonymous rebuttal, but we can take that offline. I'm certain this banter is of little interest to most readers. If any of you are interested in a counterpoint send me an email, I know you’ll love the address. [email protected]

---I totally agree with Paul. Let yourself be known to take credit for your post.----

Thanks Jennifer!!

You have to remember the playing field that we are operating in.

Long gone are the days of hiding behind "handles", especially if you want your voice to carry any weight. John Reese did a very good post about it at Income.com

Amy & JL,

Is that how it is made? Just going off of your post I kind of strummed it up for you!

I totally agree with Paul. Let yourself be known to take credit for your post.

JL from what is seems on defending AT as you do, are you part of the AT Blitz team?

Let me know how the cool aid taste!

1 cup of bull
1 cup of smoke
or yeah don't forget the hidden daggers
Add the desired amount of Sugar to sweeten it up
Mix & drink!

Any other suggestions on how the cool aid is made?

JL as I have said before you do not use your real name or industry affiliation's so your prodding does not really justify my attention but I will give it to you anyway.

In the future if you desire a response from me come clean with who you are. Do not hide behind initials My phone number is readily available make yours available too. Be transparent online if you want credibility.

The only high end classified vendor I use right now it cars.com and the only reason they are still in the mix is due to circumstances out of my control. However at the price point which I advertise there it is almost justifiable.

When our current contract ends I will not be there if my input is recognized. At the end of the day it is not my decision.

I can be a voice in the industry, I cannot control what others do with their money.

However, my voice is crystal and I do not hide behind unrecognizable an unknown moniker,

Any further prodding by you will be ignored until you give:

---your real name
---industry affiliation
---your phone number

Until you do enjoy your cool aid!!

Paul Rushing
912-266-1629
ISM Carl Gregory Chrysler Dodge Hyundai
5400 Altama Avenue
Brunswick, GA 31525

Paul,

I don't mean for this to be personal and I hope it isn't taken that way. I'm only seeking full disclosure and the fact that nearly every post regarding ATC or Cars.com generates the same response from you has finally prompted me to ask.

I've read your paper, I've read your blog, I've read your posts on this and a few other notable automotive sites, but this confounds me.

As much as you beat the leakage and monetization of user generated content drum, I was truly surprised to see that Carl Gregory Hyundai is employing the services of one of the "anti-dealer" organizations that you are so quick to publicly defame, yet I've never seen you mention that. The greatest evidence against your report is that you yourself, the author, who encourages other dealers to "stand up to them and cancel" don't seem to be able to run a successful department without the addition of a "classified vendor" to your lead mix.

ATC's blitz team has been chastised for saying one thing and doing another in this thread and Amy who is obviously either new to ATC or new to this blog took the bait and got bashed on the head a bit for toting the company line, but turnabout is fair play.

I think your paper, "How the Major Classified Auto Vendors Hurt Your Online Success," would be much more credible if you would explain why you berate third parties on this blog and encourage other dealers to drop them but seem to benefit from the contacts and exposure by using them in your own dealership, unless of course you aren't benefiting from them which leads to a few more questions.

On another note, where is Lightnup? I would have expected to see a few posts by now.

Come on 100 posts!

Ok, I know I am a vendor for TK, but I had been an Internet Manager / BDC Director before hand and I had to put a little bit of my sense in here, since reading Amy's comments & I hope YALL enjoy it!

I used AT in the past but only on my used inventory, yeah it was nice to track calls, emails and whatever. I then had a new rep come in to the dealership trying to get me to put the New Inventory on Auto Trader. I had asked her "Why?" She stood their like a "Deer in the head lights look" uhhhhhh for better exposure. Lady you got to sell me! After her babbling along about the greatness of the new car exposure, I asked " What is the price?"

There again " Deer in the headlights".. I still have never received any pricing...

Yes the Blitz crew came along for I like to call them the "Rat Circus / Dog & Pony Show or better yet Circus Vendors".

I always enjoyed getting them worked up and brushing them off the lot, because I so did not need that. I agree with Alex "they tick me off too"

Amy, Just a note to say " If you brag about how much your vendors spend, I think you mean by spending too much time looking up the skirt!"

I agree with TTT, you seemed to be way overly burnt out. If you are taking your job to personal (for which it seems to be) you may want to consider a differnet career.

SEO, SEM and Blogs???? Just let me know when you find it, because I am having a heck of a time trying to find it.

AT is a good investment if you use it right, but after the prices being jacked up to cover the Superbowl and all the Glitter, I would never consider using them again.

---------Paul- you are incorrect. atc has built strong brand...but people (13 MILLION a MO) come to find a car...your car....and spend the most of their time on the search results page...where your inventory, logo, map & phone number are. If they are in market car shoppers, looking for what you sell...how is this not good long term?--- Amy.

I suggest you reread my comment. ATC is using dealers inventory to build their brand not the dealers.

Long term it hurts the dealers not helps them. I suggest you get a copy of my report. Click on my name it is there waiting for you!!

Paul Rushing

Autotrader will be on the ropes this year. They are in the midst of their worst quarterly performance in the companies 10 year existance, actual negative numbers for the first time ever. Whomever the genius was that thought up the one date renewal pull through with a rate increase to boot is the one that launched the Titanic. There isn't enough time to blitz the entire nation and stop the leaking on this one I'm afraid. "Iceberg, straight ahead!"

I'm so sick of hearing about traditional media spends being compared to online media spends. TTT is right, if you look at what is being spent on traditional media, it is a fraction of what it was a few short years ago. We're spending millions less per year in traditional media than we were 5 years ago. I'm not going to get into exact figures, but I can say that in the last five years we've gone from spending 6 figures on online media per year to over 7 figures.....might that be where a good chunk of that traditional ad budget went?

Also in the last 5 years we've gone from spending on the high side of 5 figures to ATC per year, down to $0 per year. Guess what? We're still in business! I recall one of my ATC reps saying we're going to go out of business if we're not on ATC. Maybe it is because our local Toyota ad agency subsidizes the basic listing package for ATC that is keeping us going. Out of our 11 franchises, we're still around because we have Toyota on ATC. Yeah, that must be it. I'd hate to see what happens if our ad group ever decides to go with Cars.com......I might have to get rid of my new car, kill my vacations, and sell the house!

Sorry, I'm being silly, but I had to stoop down to the typical argument I get into with people from ATC because they just can't comprehend that we can survive without them.....actually, survive isn't the right word - "thrive" is much better.

Amy - you mentioned "ACCOUNTABILITY" - will you please explain how ATC is accountable for reporting, support (mainly in Atlanta), keeping feeds shut off when asked, and taking responsibility for inventory removal.

Amy, the cost per closed deal sourced from autotrader has gone up considerably in the past three years, tripled on average in fact. Dealers are finding other sources of wide exposure for their dealerships and inventory that source more closed deals for less than 25% of the costs associated with autotrader(SEO, SEM, PPC campaigns that work!).

Traffic, exposure, etc. that's great, but what about the bottm line costs associated with the closed deals sourced from autotrader? We measure and the math just doesn't add up anymore.

BTW, we use no newspaper, billboard, direct mail, television because they are not effective, the in market car audience is online, we know that, but the ratio of cost per closed deal with you has become severly lopsided in the past couple years. It's not all about "cheap" it's about effetiveness and real results with affordable costs per closed sourced deals, other companies & strategies have surfaced that smart dealerships are utilizing, remember it's 2008 now, not 2003.

Paul- you are incorrect. atc has built strong brand...but people (13 MILLION a MO) come to find a car...your car....and spend the most of their time on the search results page...where your inventory, logo, map & phone number are. If they are in market car shoppers, looking for what you sell...how is this not good long term?

Jon- your "strange offer"...not a new concept...where were you 10 years ago?

we are not a lead provider. period. Consider all the numbers or ask your rep to take away the consumers ability to get a map to your store. if its not important take it away. otherwise- it has value.

ACCOUNTABILITY.

TTT- you dont know me. I have had 0 dealers cancel in 6 months and maintain less than 2% for the year. year over year. I am afraid you have mistaken my passion for something else. I love my job & more importantly the relationships i have with dealers.

Cars.com is spening 200 million this year? who is cutting that check- are you sure it isnt bundled in with all their other media companies advertising they own to make it SOUND big? Are you sure they aren't keeping their costs fixed so that can control your perception and re-capture that "other" money that you used to spend in their newspapers, tv stations?

inspect what you expect.

RE: Amy

I find it funny that Amy says "Alex- I drink the truth...if you want to pass- that is your call. No doubt there are alternatives....alternatives to traditional media."

This is the typical first counterpoint of every ATC rep, they bring up Traditional media as if every dealer is still spending the same amount they were 5, 10 yrs ago. They are not, look at the stock market lately? Newspapers are losing market share, revs, and laying off people. The other thing that amazes me about this statement is ATC is one division of Cox Enterprises that consists of Cox Media (TV), Cox Radio, and the Atlanta Constitutional newspaper which is how it was started. So dealers coming from the internal horses mouth itself you should stop doing all that?

Amy also says "trade publications, monday night football, final 4, have 7 major league baseball team promotions...1.2 billion tv impressions this" So I guess its ok for ATC to invest in Print and TV, and their Christian Slater Radio ads but not dealers?

The first 3 she mentions that ATC uses "We do SEO, SEM, , Blogs,"

Where is ATC blogs that help dealers by the way? Just curious... Never heard of that eventhough I know ATC spends a ton on SEM, meanwhile if a dealer does it themselves, it takes people right to their site vs. ATC site with all their competition.

RE: AMY
"of all of the "vendors" you want to compare autotrader.com to....which one can say to you they are spending 70 plus million to drive traffic?"

Cars.com internet ad budget this year per someone from Cars.com was 200 million this year. 3x ATC, and guess what they aren't wasting it on trying to recreate the company into a "New car comparable search site"

Another Amy point:
"the problem is that because internet is so trackable we are held to a standard that is incredibly high... but when you measure all advertising...directly in comparison to REACHING BUYERS there is no better alternative better than the INTERNET. There is no bigger selection on the internet than autotrader.com."

So being accountable is a problem for ATC? Or is the problem they now have no excuse on a low ROI that they can't hide from?

And why can't you track a billboard, TV, or Radio ad? Last time I heard you can use the same phone call tracking vendor ATC uses Whos Calling or Call Source and put it on a billboard, in a TV or Radio ad?

RE: Amy:
"I sound like a jerk sometimes in written communication...and am not out to offend anyone. so please dont take it personal. I am in the battlefield all day long with yall and sometimes i feel like people get caught up in the quantity of the leads instead of the quality."

Amy you don't sound like a jerk, you sound burned out and like you just came out of an quarterly sales meeting where they teach you "Exposure", "compare vs. traditional media instead vs. other internet ad solutions", and that you are dealing with a lot of cancellations on the "battlefield".

RE: Amy
"Right now is critical and we can all make a huge difference...but yall have to relax and trust that people care about your success as much as you do."

So in critical times do you think ATC cared when they raised rates on every dealer nationwide 4 months ago?

BTW if that "yall" accent wasn't to cover your tracks so ATC mgt thinks your in their Southern Region and you are really somewhere in NY or some other area - keep it up I think ATC can use some more people like yourself with Southern hospitality that CARE, and CONSULT dealers. I think your energy is good, but your "jerk sometimes in written communication" is evident.. But love your feedback so ...

"Bring it"

I was approached by a vendor today with a strange offer. He offered to let me post all of my used car inventory on his site for free, in return I get a link back to my website, a call tracking number, and he only wants to charge $19 for valid email leads that have been scrubbed. It sounds like such a foreign concept, I only pay for actual email leads and any phone calls or links into my site are free.

It would be great to see Autotrader or Cars.com adopt this type of pricing structure, but of course they won't since it would make way too much sense for the dealer to have a cost per lead of $19 versus the $80 cost per lead I pay now. I guess someone has to pay for their nice convention booths and plasma screens.

The real deal Amy is the use of platforms similar to AT et al is that the dealer is paying for the right to provide content to your site and you monetize it other ways.

The only brand a dealer is building by using your service is yours, not theirs. It is a loser for your advertisers long term.

Of those 600 clicks that you speak of from that banner how many did they miss due to the onsite leaks and did those banner clicks come when a consumer was visiting another dealers inventory item?

With so many other ways to get eyes on inventory why contribute to the AT brand and not your own?

Alex- I drink the truth...if you want to pass- that is your call. No doubt there are alternatives....alternatives to traditional media. I think all dealers should be as agressive as their understanding & budget takes them. My dealers are not stupid...they pay more every opportunity they can because it works..Seriously- why do people spend 30 minutes average per search to find a car? its because they need a car and we are the most comprehensive site with the most amount in market car buyers....and we are FREE unlike the alternative of hopping in the truck for a drive across town on a saturday...or wherever.

yesterdays showroom traffic is todays internet traffic- it should be studied..every single number should be taken into consideration.

Phil- How to you accurately measure billboards? the amount you spend in radio? tv? local promos? the problem is that because internet is so trackable we are held to a standard that is incredibly high... but when you measure all advertising...directly in comparison to REACHING BUYERS there is no better alternative better than the INTERNET. There is no bigger selection on the internet than autotrader.com.
Look at the amount of times your inventroy came up in the searches...then look at how many people responded to your ads. that is where the ROI measurement should start with the exposure.

Eric- here is a pretty basic question to go along with your facts about what is cheap.

of all of the "vendors" you want to compare autotrader.com to....which one can say to you they are spending 70 plus million to drive traffic?

answer: NONE

We do SEO, SEM, , Blogs, Nada, edmunds, msn, univision, trade publications, monday night football, final 4, have 7 major league baseball team promotions...1.2 billion tv impressions this year...etc. all to drive traffic to us which in turn is designed to drive traffic to you.

so if you are buying something because its cheap...then its probably not as good. that has been my experience with cheap...always.

One more thing...

one of my dealers uses tracking id's on his ads on the site...so that he is able to determine where the customer goes directly after leaving autotrader.com and goes to his site.

since august of 2006...70% of the time when there is a click through to him from atc...they do 3 things:
1. request a quote
2. vehicle locator
3. contact the store

you think those clicks 600 clicks to your site dont mean a thing? perhaps they do..

I sound like a jerk sometimes in written communication...and am not out to offend anyone. so please dont take it personal. I am in the battlefield all day long with yall and sometimes i feel like people get caught up in the quantity of the leads instead of the quality.

Right now is critical and we can all make a huge difference...but yall have to relax and trust that people care about your success as much as you do.

eitherway- i really enjoy this blog and welcome the opportunity to be honest with yall.

bring it

I'll share some basic info...

In the last 30 days:

CarsDirect.com sent us 1500+ visitors...
AutoTrader.com sent us 600+ visitors...
Our blog sent us 400+ visitors...

If you're not familiar w/CarsDirect - they're cheap.

AutoTrader isn't...

Our blog is free...

[the C.R.'s for the 1st two are nearly the same; blog is obviously lower]

Where would you spend your time & money...?

I could only find the table in the print zine no luck online,
looks like the table is a breakdown of units and monthly overpayment over a five year period. Maybe you could email Paul if you don't have the print version.

Brian,

Is my computer busted or what- I don't see "the table."

Where is he getting that number ($7.74) from?

"It turns out that a dollar saved actually has the same effect as earning $7.74 in gross profit.

The below calculations are based on NADA-published 2006 U.S. dealer averages (as published in Auto Executive Magazine, March 2007. The table to the right summarizes the actual effort required to pay for excessive DMS charges:"

Brian, I believe Mr. Gillrie's statement is regarding "hardware & systems" versus autotrader.com which is strictly "advertising".

Our philosophy is that all sources of advertising are measured and tracked as accurately as we possibly can (really, we do try and track everything) and they stand or fall on the merits of the ROI generated from them. Last month we had 2 leads from autotrader.com and neither of them bought yet we sold about 22 from our website alone.

Back to the blitz issue with autotrader, our dealership realizes the discounts of these "sales blitzes" dog & pony shows they roll into town every year with but I gotta say that even w/the offers they had, we weren't about to spend any additional funds because the ROI from them has dropped so significantly in the past couple of years.

I would encourage you to open the June copy of Digital dealer or paste the link below
Mr. Gillrie has a relevant article on overpaying for technology
has more to do with DMS prices but I found this compelling piece of info....
"your intuition tells you that a dollar saved has exactly the same effect on the bottom line as earning an extra dollar of gross profit. Your intuition, in this case, would be very wrong. As you can see in the chart below, the reality is that it takes a lot more than a dollar of gross to pay for a dollar of computer expense. It turns out that a dollar saved actually has the same effect as earning $7.74 in gross profit."

hmmmm?

We are in a performance based industry - if we don't perform and sell cars, we don't have jobs. Guess what? That applies to our vendors as well. If your product does not perform - why should we keep you? When the cost of AutoTrader is 3 times more than other vendors that provide the same if not more page views, email leads, phone calls, and sales, how do you justify your cost? When we measure the ROI of all vendors, and AutoTrader is not nearly as good as many of our other partners, and comes at a significantly higher cost, why should we keep them? Bottom line for me is that while AutoTrader has some exposure in the market, they are pricing themselves out of the market against their competition. We are not getting added value that is justified by the cost. In the end - it is business - ALL of us must perform!

Amy,

Is that grape or fruit punch? You enjoy drinking that Kool-Aid, but please don't offer me any. I can't stand that stuff.

Phil is right. There are many, many, many alternatives to AutoTrader right now. It isn't about a captive audience on ATC, which is a farce of a thought anyway, it is about measuring ROI right now. Are your dealers who are spending over $20,000 a month making over $100,000 in profit with ATC that same month? Or are they turning maybe $5,000 to $10,000 in profit once the bill is paid? With all the forms and places of advertising online, you have to provide a much larger ROI if you're going to charge a much larger price.

"There is a reason we are so expensive. we are worth it..."

4 or 5 years ago, sure I'm with you on that, I'm sure others will agree. In 2008 (now) there are many alternatives out there that can generate almost the same local audience wide exposure to our used and especially new inventories.

If our ROI kept up with the percentages of rate increase from autotrader this would be a moot point but as countless of us have said in the past, it hasn't.

We had a "blitz" visit a couple months ago as another mentioned it was a little refreshing to have a visit from a rep that actually knew the product, our local rep seems clueless to the automotive market.