Funny, I see Cars.com on the TV all the time AND the local paper has Cars.com ads everyday. Soon cars.com will have Yahoo! auto channel which, unlike MSN, has had large increases in traffic. People go to MSN for two things, search/homepage and Hotmail. AT is falling behind with out dated partnerships that have a name (maybe for car buyers or maybe just a name) but, do not drive traffic of car shoppers. I'd rather have a 3rd party that changes with the industry and is effective. Not to sound like a cars.com ad, but they buy key words on all engines and have bigger budgets to do so than I. All the dealers on a 3rd party gives strength in numbers and I like that strength.
All of this isn't bashing, it is just that dealers are realizing what is going on and through communication, can all share what they know.... and that is AT is becoming a dying entity and this price hike is to get what they can, while they can.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the corp offices of ATC after reading this thread!

David - that's too funny. I'll be in Baltimore November 18-20th - maybe we should all catch up Monday or Tuesday?

Jeff - Are you getting ready to go work for Autotrader.com?

Dear Cars 3.0 employee,

Let Autotrader.com raise the rates. The last time I attended a professional baseball, football or basketball game I didn't see any Cars.com advertising. We pay for what we get back. Hmmnn...

How many internet marketing resources does Cars.com pay for to be easily found by the consumer searching for their next vehicle? KBB (lol!!), NADA, AOL, Edmunds?

In a non-newspaper affiliated/Cars.com market, when have I have seen a Cars.com rep come into the dealership and help educate management on the benefits of their advertising service and show their results, or assist a fledgling internet manager produce more results from their advertising?

Or upon contract signing, send an associate to the dealership's lot to do an intitial photo upload free of charge?

ATC is infamous for billing screw ups? Is this based on experienced or just heresay?

Wait until the last days of the month for the best deal? Lol... Proof is in the pudding. Contact me through Mr. Kershner and show me the difference of an initial contract proposal and a signed contract for monthly service for the same account.

Beyond all the ATC 'bashing' on this post, I have proven results from ATC that as of Nov 9, 2007; 4 of my 8 vehicle sales for the month came from Autotrader.com consumers so far.

Cherry on top... I don't pay for the advertising out of my pocket. All I know is how many customers it drives to me every month. My cost per vehicle sold via online advertising is exceedingly less than traditional dealership advertising costs of newspaper, tv or radio. Oh, but wait... how do you track those sources?

If they don't find your vehicle online, they will find your competitors. Autotrader.com is the #1 resource consumers use first to find and/or research their next vehicle.

Post an Autotrader blog entry on DealerRefresh= 3 psychotic calls from my AT rep

Alex Snyder raising the bar with his additions= 4 more calls and emails from AT higher-ups

look on Chip Perry's face when he was asked about the blog....priceless!!!

Three things with Autotrader.com

1. They aren't thru raising your rates yet, wait a couple months, more to come!

2. Watch your billing carefully, they are infamous for really historic billing screw ups that can take months to rectify, credit promises not paid, proration discounts never applied, etc.

3. Wait until 4 days left in the month to sign a deal then hold out and keep holding until they concede.

Ahhh, I thought it was weird that you couldn't recall the name of oompa loompas. Ok, so Mike Teavee was a good reference...our Rovion Lady is very much like a Mike Teavee, minus the fact she is female and an adult. And it is not that anyone "plays" with her (that would be creepy and weird and I would not want to know about it), she tells them what to do. It is interesting - when you give people instructions, more often than not, they tend to follow them! Maybe not accurately, but they can get the basics!

Mike Teavee was the kid from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory that used the chocolate television room to shrink himself down to about 2 inches...perfect for a website!!

The poor Oompa Loompas had their work cut out for them when they had to stretch him back to regular size.

WHOA!! When did the AutoTrader.com post turn into a 'land of pure imagination'??

I stand corrected. If your lead and service conversion ratios have increased 300% because of your Oompa Loompa, maybe every website should all get a friendly little guy to play with!!

I love Walt Disney World and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory! Perhaps if I was a "Professor," I would have more refined tastes. However, our mini Charlie and the Chocolate Factory person (for future reference, they are called Oompa Loompas in the book) upped our lead and service conversion 3 times...go figure.

It's a shame that far too many dealerships are more concerned with finding sales and service opportunities through 3rd party sources when they have a website that their customers can't find online. AND...when their customer's do find them online, they are forced to listen to cheesy jingles or Charlie and Chocolate Factory mini people talk about how great the dealership 'experience' is.

Goto Amazon.com, eBay.com, Google.com, BestBuy.com, Walmart.com, etc. and see what the biggest and brightest players online are doing. Try to emulate their Internet presences vs. trying to build a Walt Disney like experience on your website.

Here's a secret...consumers have better things to do than visit your website to listen your jingles and TV commercials!! They won't come back daily to 'check you out'. The WWW has far too many options for your dealership to become the online version of WallyWorld.

Step back for a moment and take your Internet advertising offline...

Do you spend a majority of your offline ad budget on off-site sales?

THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING WHEN YOUR BUDGET IS GOING TO 3RD PARTY PROVIDERS!!!

Invest in yourself before you spend your money elsewhere. If your virtual dealership isn't the best it can be, why would you concentrate ANY effort on online portals?

Erica - you crack me up!

Can we please discuss how hilarious the graphic on this post is? Alex, where in the world did you find it - it is PERFECT! That might be the meanest thing said about ATC on the post! A picture is worth a thousand words!

Yourprofessor, your post is spot on! Why do so many dealers' websites treat inventory like a red headed stepchild? Dealers need to look at inventory listings like shoppers. And...dealers need to know that shoppers are finding them via Google. "xxx dealer (location) online inventory" will get your customer to your site, but what happens when they get there?

If I went to a store and all the inventory was in boxes, labelled "sweater" or "shoes", with identical little pictures (Stock photos) on them, and to know what color the items were, or if they were made of wool or leather I had to talk to a salesperson, I'd be out of that store in a NY minute. Yet many, many dealer inventories are like that. "ONLINE INVENTORY!! Yes we have a 2008 xxx, contact us to find out what color it is, what trans its got, what options are on it, list price...." I'm an unhappy shopper at that point.

The reason people research on the internet is THAT THEY AREN'T READY TO TALK TO ANYONE YET--THEY ARE "JUST LOOKING", at least in the beginning.Why do dealers bother with online inventory if they won't provide depth of information?

Frankly, Auto Trader has the same problem--wildly inconsistent levels of info provided. Try searching them for something with manual trans, for example. Half the time you'll get listings where the dealer didn't bother to list anything except standard equipment on their vehicles.

Shopping behavior is not just hunting, it's gathering...INFORMATION

Tranferring risk to the Rep is the best way to put it. It appears they are in the midst of a hiring frenzy. The turnover after the holidays will be enormous. I've been with them three years and have had enough.

"Do you realize that their new pay plan is based on procuring new business almost exclusively? They get nothing for RETAINING that business, but yet get penalized heavily if we cancel"

This is the EXACT pay plan used by Verizon Yellow pages (I sold YP for 2 ugly years).

This pay plan is built for driving numbers into a spread sheet and transfering risk (loss) down to the rep. It is the reason why turnover at AT is so great.

I have lived this pay plan and I can speak with confidence as There is no better way to destruct long term BUSINESS RELATIONSHIPS with your clients than to implement this anxiety ridden plan.

Lastly, if you're managing the Yellow Pages, you can get away with this pay plan, the YP market is so un-dynamic.

Joe

It is amazing how much is spent on AutoTrader. I used them in the used car business and it paid off in the long run. But that was 2 years ago. Now you are lucky to even make enough gross to foot the bill for Auto Trader. Many dealers don't realize that Auto Trader charges an extra $200-$300 if not more to have the inventory pushed to them, a few dealers may already pay to have it pushed through their resources they currently have in place. Seems like double dipping I see. They don't care, they want their $$.
As mentioned earlier in one of the comments investing in to your current site that is going to give you the ROI you deserve is the best thing to do. Investing in your SEO! 20% of the dealers now are starting to do that. Dealers get abused so much for trying to get that extra sale and not get nothing out of it from the big guys saying they have their magic wand!
I would not suggest AutoTrader, It really gets me to see so many ISM's and dealers out there that have a grudge on them. They made their own mark in the industry!

"Do you realize that their new pay plan is based on procuring new business almost exclusively? They get nothing for RETAINING that business, but yet get penalized heavily if we cancel"

We have no idea what their business strategy is or will be going into next year. It's all or nothing anymore, could be alot of nothing if they aren't careful.

The most unfortunate part of this lengthly thread is that a majority of dealerships don't understand what they are doing by participating in AutoTrader.com.

Without YOUR inventory, the 3rd party lead generating, portal business model doesn't work!! If every dealership shut off their inventory feeds to Autotrader.com tonight, where would Autotrader.com's website be tomorrow?

Here's an exercise...

1. Pick a vehicle from your website and copy it's VIN number

2. Paste the VIN number into Google, Yahoo!, or MSN

What do you see?????

Does the vehicle show online shoppers that the VIN number is parked at your dealership's URL (your virtual lot)? Or is your vehicle only visible on the 3rd party sites that you subscribe to?

Web Design 101 isn't being practiced by a majority of website providers in the Automotive Internet industry when it comes to your most valuable (and expensive) asset, your inventory.

Too many dealerships are 100% reliant on 3rd party lead providers because their inventory has been framed in using another 3rd party solution on their website due to their 'website' company not having an inventory module!! If your inventory is framed into a 'New Inventory' or 'Pre-Owned Inventory' section of your site, the ONLY chance an online consumer will find it is if they manage to stumble and fumble through your pieced together clunky website (very unlikely) or through an online automotive portal.

Here is Google's take on frames:

'Frames can cause problems for search engines because they don't correspond to the conceptual model of the web.'

Until customers in your market are able to discover YOUR inventory on YOUR website through the search engines, sit back and enjoy the price hikes from each of your 3rd Party Lead sources...or do something about it!!!

Make sure your dealership isn't cruising down the Information Superhighway in a 1972 Ford Pinto! The results are explosive.

AutoTrader.com is reading this thread on all levels. If you want to have a voice, post a comment.

I don't know what changes may or may not come out of this, but they're certainly aware of our grievances. From the proposal I just received, there is a major price difference from the one I heard before I started this thread. I'm still not happy, but at least they're moving now.

Since I now know, without a doubt, ATC is reading this thread I have to put in a good word for my rep. Despite all the hell I always put him through, he does a good job of standing his ground. Yes, he has been drinking the ATC Kool Aid, but he is much more professional than other ATC reps I've dealt with. I like my rep, but I'm still not a fan of the product....at their uncompetitive prices.

I'll never completely buy-in to a scheme that uses our name to promote itself while charging us a fee to do it (I call it parasitic marketing), but while this model exists I'm going to do everything in my power to keep pricing honest.

I will weigh in on this as well. As the decision maker for which third party companies we use and ultimately the person who is accountable for what we pay for these companies; I say it is about time for a change.

I have had a great relationship with ATC for years. I have always signed on whatever dealergroup I am working for or consulting with based on their market. But this latest price hike makes no sense and ultimately will result in the demise of many good ATC sales reps who recently underwent a pay plan change. Needless to say, the feedback hasn't be good and cancellations are way up.

Do you realize that their new pay plan is based on procuring new business almost exclusively? They get nothing for RETAINING that business, but yet get penalized heavily if we cancel. On top of that, they are now told to spew that ATC is a "advertising medium" instead of a Internet lead provider and should be gauged against newspaper and radio.

C'mon ATC, you are sending your reps, Sales Managers and Regional Sales Managers (yes, I have had all three in my office) to war with no bullets. Saying, "wave your guns, I am sure they will fear your power and flee"!

While I am at it, these companies need to quit thumping their chests and figure out more VIABLE and UNIQUE products to offer. By signing everyone up on ATC or Cars.com, it dilutes the chances of even getting seen, let alone contacted.

Videos are nice...mmm k.
Price drop is icon is ...o.k.
Banner ads that are shared with 18 bazillion others is ...so so
Credit apps that can't go into your CRM are a pain
Partnership packages aren't producing negligable results.

We need ways besides the typical, custom comments, pricing and photos to set ourselves apart. Give me that at a increased price and we will talk. Give me a watered down version of what I am already getting, for twice the cost and we are done talking.

I will probably have to cancel all stores over this.

Lastly, I ran a division off eBay for awhile that did Fleet remarketing. We were on top of the world. We could ask for all the money and get it. Companies would come to us. Just like when ATC used to say, it is your loss not being on our site, we did the same at eBay and it worked!

Now, eBay is realizing (maybe too late) that they can't continue to hike up fees and not keep increasing results and substantiate it by widgets. Now that we are all a little more educated and that there are more choices, there needs to be more value and ROI.

Come March 2008, I think Autotrader will re-think their scheme. Hopefully for them, it won't be too late.

That's interesting Eric. I have a meeting with my AutoTrader.com rep in about 10 minutes. BRB.

Simple solution-don't pay the increase.

My Autotrader rep socked me with an annual renewal for $450 more per month than the previous year. After looking closely at my contract, I discovered that our contract is open-ended, with no scheduled increases in rate. I said I was happy with my current contact and not to change a thing. After a few threats of "we can't offer you 2008 product at 2007 rates", they renewed my contract-at my original rate.

Good luck.

800 new staff?

hmm....400 in Atlanta (support, admin, techs, execs)
hmm.... 400 in rest of usa has to be outside sales force.
That's $24-30mill in payroll alone. >$2 mill a month.
Damn, that's a huge burn rate.

Ok, I hereby withdraw my guess that they're a seller
I now say they're rolling out a totally new platform to sell to already p*ssed off AT advertisers.

Dear Chip Perry,
I hope it's not another MyRide.com!

Joe

"There's an explosion of interest in online shopping," Perry said.
The only thing I've seen "exploding" from autotrader is the monthly rates. We're down 30% this year vs last year on calls alone. Who out there is really content with what they are receiving in relation to what they're paying these folks anymore? Anyone??????

Tim you're right they do read threads like this but will they realistically listen to their dealers this time around? I don't believe they will, but they should. I'm sure we've all spoken of Autotrader's rate increase percentages with our peers & w/our Reps but this time I've heard literally everyone that has an account with them bring it up in casual conversation about Autotrader.com at just about every opportunity they could when discussing internet advertising this past year or so. I'm also hearing the same sentiments expressed on here that I've heard in conversation with my peers about in the past year also and that's the declining ROI, most importantly I'd say the phone call numbers are way off compared to years past. They've got a tough climb ahead of them to justify the path they've chosen. Our dealership is considering what to do with our account right now and it doesn't bode well for them in having us swallowing the price increase they want this time around. Since they've lost Yahoo as an advertising partner how is this possibly going to improve the situation going into the new year? Any guesses as to that one?