I think my post over on the autotrader.com
subject is still relevant.
You can read it here.

David Jackson

OOPS! I guess I should have adressed that last post to Jerry, not Jeff. Plz pardon.

Jeff--

Regarding your question about Dealer.com, I can honestly respond from my 2+ yrs experience with this vendor that they are a cut above the rest.

They understand proper site design (code), "visibility" with search engines and the calls-to-action that induce otherwise anonymous visitors to transact with your site.

All too often, Web vendors capitalize on dealers' general ignorance of Web technology and sell them on the buzz and bang of Flash intros, talking spokemodels and other elements which bring far less to the equation than they take from it (BZ, Izmo, Dealerskins, to name a few....sorry if I'm hurting any feelings here). In contrast, Dealer.com uses primarilty static HTML in an effort to maximize search visibility, and they pay much more attention to navigation structure and other potential roadblocks to your visitors finding what they are after and submitting a lead.

Try this:

Google "site:www.siteaddresshere.com" using example sites given to you by various vendors. This will show the number of pages within the dealer site domains that are currently indexed by Google and available to be returned on prospect search results. Many will only have 2 or 3 pages indexed, while the average Dealer.com site will have a thousand or more. What's more, one of the reasons this is the case is that Dealer.com's integrated inventory piece actually creates a separate indexable (is this a word?) page for each vehicle detail page....talk about a page full of relevant keywords ready to be found by your prospects.

Great support, back-end, reporting, blah blah blah...

No, I don't work for Dealer.com -- I'm an e-commerce director who is a true believer from previous experience with other framed-up, Flashed-out vendors whose sites yielded low lead counts. I could go on gushing about Dealer.com for days, but I'll shut up now..

Hope that helps!

Kevin

We recently shopped around for a new website vendor and ended up staying with Reynolds Web Solutions for several reasons. Reynolds is more competitive price wise than most people would expect, and they have new products in the pipeline that will be out soon ( Integration with the ERA System for Service, New Templates, Chrome Data, Color matching inventory to the actual color for new vehicles, SEM optimization,etc) We also switched from AVV for lead mgmt to Autobase.

I recommend also checking out Dealer.com for websites and for lead mgmt vinsolutions.com has an excellent inventory mgmt and lead mgmt tool.

Most of the mfg's require some type of approved lead mgmt tool.

Best of luck shopping around...

We are a volume Ford dealer and evaluating providers other than the local provider that we have now. Any inputs on dealer.com?

Thank you!

The question I would ask is does the vendor have system totally integrated CRM/ILM/Web Sites/Inventory/Digital Marketing etc. into one seamless system. Wouldn’t it make sense to deal with one vendor that could provide everything you needed?

Ray,

You have found a good place for questions like this on DealerRefresh. Not to say that this is the case for you, but all too often I see dealers bedazzled with the idea that the grass is greener on the other side.

The other day I had a dealer contact me about building him a new site. They have 5 franchises and each of them are on the Rey Rey platform, but his splash page was was done by AutoONE Media. At first look I was impressed at the quality and character of this site. Then I did some searches on Yahoo! and Google to see how he faired in Search Marketing, he his site was top rate. When I asked him why he wanted to switch providers, his response was that he has, "been with AutoONE for a long time" and isn't happy anymore with their level of customer service.

The unfortunate aspect is that while the provider is seemingly doing the job right with the technology, they are not meeting the dealer's relational needs. This is by and far the biggest killer for most providers because they are constantly seeking out new business and leave existing customers to speak up or get out.

My two bits is to compare the depth of the tools they are offering. Things that I recommend keeping an eye out for are:

- Make sure the provider is on a CMS platform and make sure you can test drive it with your own hands and eyes. Do not settle for a video or PPT showing you all the benefits. You need the ability to modify 100% of the content on your site at any time. Do not settle for less than that.

- Make sure it has a built in ILM and is designed for SEO. I also recommend making sure it has a blog component, but these are easy to attach to sites so it's not the end of the world if it doesn't.

- Make sure you can access your inventory real-time. For most providers today this is not an issue, but definitely make sure you can.

- Find out what is farmed out and in-house. Not that one or the other is better or worse, but make sure you know who the real technology provider is behind the scenes.

- Talk to customers of each provider you are considering. This is where places like DealerRefresh and CarDealerForums.com come in handy.

Welcome to DealerRefresh!

-Ryan Gerardi

There are a number of web site providers, CRM and inventory providers offering great sites and service.

The price will range from $1200.00 per month for a Reynolds type site with inventory solution coupled with LSI to $5,000.00 plus from a company like BZ results which is way over priced and also is lacking technology wise.

Watch out for the sales people who promise everything and deliver 50%. Look who they are servicing presently and ask them what they think of the solution. Be sure to mystery shop the dealers using the tool and see how they perform.

Ask the manager, GM and the ISM separately what they think of the program and solution provided. Many times the manager will make the decision without knowing the process and the ISM must live and suffer with the mistakes. Or the ISM will make the decision and later find out the decision was bad however is afraid to say anything.

I have spoken with some dealers so unhappy with their solution and contractually bound so they just close it, pay the fees and move on to a new solution and end up paying two companies. Sad but true.

Stay away from long term agreements. Companies like BZ and ADP like you to commit to long term however technology changes quickly and if you are locked into a 3-5 year deal you must live with it and suffer while your competitors move ahead. Most of these companies protected by long term agreements get comfortable and lag on technology updates and improvements.

Many of the good companies will have 1or 2 years contracts and some offer solutions with no contract.

Research what each company offers you and which seems to be the most comfortable group to work with. Tech support is key of course so find out who works with you best.

Always be sure to make 3rd party providers agree that you do not pay for Dup. leads. Most leads come in from OEM’s first so you must monitor the leads every day to be sure. Being a one OEM store this should not be difficult. Leads can run between $15-20.00 per lead so they are expensive paying for the same lead 2-3 times.

When you do decide on a solution send an email to Jeff and “Dealer Refresh” and ask their opinion on your deal. There is support out there to help you decide. This is the beauty of Blogs.

Ray,

Umer has provided some sound advice. Another thing I would add is that it's important for some dealerships to choose a website provider who is able to give a higher level of service. Service is important no matter which vendor you choose, but sometimes a dealer is going at internet marketing with the trial and error approach, and often feel like they don't know what they're doing without guidance. A lot of our (Higher Turnover) dealer clients are either small independents or franchise dealers in rural areas, so we run into this all the time. As an example:

We have a dealer in Northern PA who had never used any internet advertising in the past. He knew he had to do something to stay competitive, but he was barely able to turn on a computer and check email. Developing a website for him that was easy to use was one thing. The bigger picture (internet marketing) was more confusing to this dealer. In the beginning it wasn't uncommon to get 2-3 calls a day from this dealer asking for opinions on 3rd party sites or other ways to drive traffic to his site. Our role was one of education more so than traditional customer support.

I think Mitch picked up on a good point - the fact that you're posing your questions here instead of having Reynolds work with you (like they're supposed to) tells me they may not be the best fit for your situation on several levels. My advice as a vendor is to research and price several companies, and get references from each. When you contact the references, ask the questions that are most pertinent to your particular situation to ensure a good fit.

Jake

For OEM dealership I would stay away from template designs... and work on a overall brand design... where group site, bmw site, buick site all have the same look and feel and integrate well with each other.

Things I would look for in a vendor....

Have my inventory be part of the site... instead of being framed in. Avoid links to sites that drive traffic away from my site... help me convert at an average of 5%... studies from cars.com and AutoTrader prove images sell... so a vendor that give me high quality images... a vendor that can syndicate my inventory to different place... someone that can integrate to any CRM software (AVV,iCarMagic,ReyRey,ADP,Cobalt)... knows about search engine marketing... offers as many lead capturing forms as one wants... ability to change content with out waiting for vendor... and as Mitch said listens to you and you can get out of contract if not satisfied. And may be help you setup blog... blogproautomotive.com has a nice write up on Web2.0 technologies and Mitch could share some stats on his blog ROI.

Before I go down switching a vendor route... first two thing I would ask my self is why do I need to switch and what are my goals?

Answer to both is likely more leads... now would getting a new vendor help you in this... maybe and maybe not... if you are already doing around 5-7% conversion then switching a vendor may not help... but if you are not... then I would look at my site stats.. and find out where I'm lacking... do I know at what point the user exists the site... are my lead forms working... what is the average time user spend on the site... how many pages does the user look at... if all numbers look bad.... then you likely get better site structure in place... and may be a redesign.

if conversion is there but you are lacking traffic then it might be simple as putting the redesign money into search engine marketing...

Regards,
Umer Farooq

"If you had the opportunity to start over with your website, what would you do?"

In a way, I think you've answered your own question. Your web vendor is supposed to be just that- a vendor, constantly trying to impress and satisfy you, since you pay their bills. And yet, you're left having to pose questions about site quality in the hypothetical, because you're likely locked into a contract with an old-school vendor who doesn't know a damn thing about web sites.

If I want to change something about my website, I call up my vendor, and they change it. If they come up with a new tool or strategy, they bring it to my desk. And if I decide I want to move to a new vendor, I can get out of my current sites in 30 days flat.

So if an Internet Manager has to ask the question that has been posed, the answer to that question is that they should've started over by taking control of their Internet presence and hiring a vendor who knows what they're doing and treats customer accounts as a privelege, not a right. That is far and away the main ingredient in the success of an automotive dealer site.

We will soon end the arguement between two giants. Between price and consumer as well as dealer relationships both sites are lacking. As a former industry professional, I've seen or better haven't seen what those sites can do for you. Stay tuned, we go live very soon!

Autotraders customer service in Atlanta is a joke. We switched to another source for our new inventory last month and I called them to have our new vehicle inventory source switched and they informed me this could take "...up to THREE WEEKS". I called my Cars.com rep and he had the same issue resolved for me in TWO DAYS! What is going on with Autotrader????? They cost more and do less!!!

I just tried to post an ad on autotrader, problems problems!
I searched the web after finally speaking to a "non supervisor which when asked for I was read a script about them being in a meeting" representitive after 2 days of attempts. They have a problem posting photos and then try to place blame on the customer or the internet, but there excuses don't hold water. I requested a full refund after taking all I could from some PUNK in Atlanta! Now I'll try someone else.

Go Cars.com!

just had to say it Ruby's post got me fired up! plus, I gotta go for the underdog - especially with my N.Y. Giants playing this weekend and all the doubters like when they played the Cowgirls

200 million!!!??? whoa

Here is some data from compete.com -very interesting they are almost dead on with cars.com gaining/growing (due to yahoo/msn swap maybe?)

not sure for every market but have heard ATC being 2-3 times more monthly for cars.com when comparing similar packages/bells/whistles - but then again these two are the top dogs - wonder how many customers use both - I know search as many sites as possible that can provide info on my next purchase of everything.

AutoTrader.com vs. Cars.com Visits

AutoTrader.com vs. Cars.com People Count

AutoTrader.com vs. Cars.com Rank

I agree with Robyn completely. Cars.com is not only running one commercial but we are running TWO commercials at the Super Bowl February 3, 2008. Also can Auto Trader say that they are spending $200 million on advertising in 2008? No.

GO Cars.com!!!!

When it comes to AutoTrader vs. Cars.com........it's Cars.com all the way. They just took on the partnership w/Yahoo and are advertising in the Super Bowl this year. And what is Auto Trader doing other then raising prices? NOTHING!!!

Just discovered this thread. According to what I've heard recently, AutoTrader.com will be losing it's partnership with Yahoo in December. Cars.com has evidently picked up this partnership. Cars.com lost MSN recently and AutoTrader.com picked it up recently also. Ok, stick with me on this one. Since AutoTrader.com is charging us almost 100% more than Cars.com for a similar product, same amount of vehicles listed on both products, and they still (at this current time) have active partnerships with Yahoo & MSN, where is this "surge of shoppers" that AutoTrader.com implies in the ad above????? I don't know about you but I'm paying twice the rate w/them than I am w/Cars.com and the ROI/Call Activity/Sourced Deals formula isn't indicating a "Surge" whatsoever. Why do we continue to pay them what we do??? Are we crazy??? Have they priced themselves out of the market completely??? Are they just adopting the attitiude of Bell telephone (1,000 ln gorilla) from the 1970's "We're the phone company". They go thru local Reps like it's a revolving door, never the same person for more than a year and a half it seems, why is this? The ROI isn't justifying iteslf with AutoTrader.com anymore, it used to be great (you can argue everything was at one time I know) but when premium listing products exceed the ROI most months, it's not me who's getting the axe, it's them.

Although I won't go into all the details comparing Autotrader.com to cars.com....just do the math....Cars.com claims about 8 million uniques a month, so 8% is 640,000 per month......I think thats a pretty good surge no matter how hard it is to navigate MSN autos. You internet managers always tell me how amazed you are that you "got a call from a guy in Alaska looking at my pickup". Will those 640,000 all of the sudden stop searching for a vehicle on MSN Autos? I don't think so. Those folks don't seem to have a problem navigating. It all boils down to this...if you've got the vehicle they want, they'll find ya!

Live Search (and thus, MSN Autos) is 3rd now and can conceivably be 4th in a couple of years on the search front. The only thing keeping it afloat is its default homepage setting on new computers.

Rather than join in on the Pepsi vs Coke, Cars.com vs Autotrader debate, I'd rather look at Jeff's initial assertion that MSN Autos will not provide a "surge is shoppers like you've never seen before."

It's marketing, and sadly, it may work. While MSN is growing obsolete and their MSN Autos interface is laughable, car dealers (not including astute dealerrefresh readers, of course) are prone to fall for name dropping. That's what this advertisement is.

"Wow, Microsoft. Bill Gates is rich. This is a good thing."

Will there be an increase in traffic? Of course.

Will there be a surge like we've never seen before? You tell me.

Hmm... MSN Autos and AutoTrader

Better products through marketing!

While we bicker about the increase in costs the real culprit is inflation, the evils of inflation and the wage/costs spiral, which was covered in my College 102 economics class.

This will continue and will increasingly be the economic demon of the American Economy. While the economies of India and China continue to develop with their low cost solutions and economic growth the Western economies with inflation and higher labor costs will continue to feel pain.

Mean while the Shanghai Auto Show was a complete smash. I believe this year the show was the rival or maybe even surpassed the Tokyo Show. The enthusiasm, energy and excitement of the Shanghai show was unmistakable.

This year China became the number two market surpassing Japan, second only to the USA.

This is an indication of what the future holds for the industry as it becomes more International. Chery/Chrysler, if this becomes a reality, is just the beginning of the change as American Companies need to find lower cost solutions move to off shore solutions.

Companies like Autotrader, cars.com and others will have little choice then to find lower cost solutions, as they cannot continue to pass on the expense to the dealers.

Jeff, the starting price of a C-class Mercedes went from $24,300 in 2005 to almost $32,000 in 2008. $8 grand in four years! I wouldn't be too sarcastic about AutoTrader.com's price increases if I were you.

1. Overpriced? Not any more than a Mercedes is overpriced compared to a Mazda. Smart dealers consider value, traffic, results and consumer name recognition, not just price.

2. Technology doesn't work right? You're kidding, right? Other than a few tweaks to the new admin section (while leaving the old one still available and working perfectly), please cite an example of what's not working right.

3. Site design is old and tired looking? That might be a cars.com sales pitch nugget but is a completely subjective opinion. This sounds like a case of familiarity breeding contempt. For consumers who don't go to either site every day (like those of us in the business do) both home pages are equally up-to-date in terms of design. Besides, changing the AutoTrader.com site design could be accomplished overnight, but then cars.com reps would be left without a sales pitch.