Latest activity

joe.pistell · Sep 10, 2026

KennySmithAutoUnite said:
calling the people who don’t use filters low quality.

Kenny, you missed my context...

I'm at Dealer.com talking to leaders about product design strategy, telling them why Digital Retailing was going to fail.

If you look at that chart...

...you'll see it state that the low-quality user (meaning low quality as far as product creation and sophistication) is a low-expectation user. They have no intent to use complex or sophisticated analysis or comparisons. They're here to be motivated, and they move into action quickly.

I told the team at DDC that Digital Retailing was going to FAIL due in large part that the majority of car shoppers are the low-expectation to medium-expectation users, and if you don't have the bedrock of car shopping solved for them, then adding digital retailing to an already shitty website produces little to no e-commerce sales.

You'll know when you've built a great website when the logical conclusion of the experience is to click the buy button with your pajamas on.

KennySmithAutoUnite · Sep 10, 2026

joe.pistell said:
I see the logic Kenny, but to brag just a touch, two of my three patents touch on your topic, but I think there's much more opportunity higher in the funnel.

MOST shoppers that don't use the SRP filters

shoppers that don't use the save this VDP feature on VDPs

Meaning we've got friction in the shopping system that's ahead of some of the more sophisticated concepts that you're talking about.

I'm a visual thinker, I built this chart while I was working with Alex Snyder at Dealer.com. I was trying to communicate the spectrum of users and the time it takes to build experiences that satisfy the spectrum of users.

View attachment 11622

My message was that the overwhelming majority of users are low- and medium-quality and have low expectations of what they want from the internet. To execute and optimize the system for them first will still be used and appreciated by most-demanding users.

Joe, this is probably the part that changed my thinking the most.

I agree the basic path has to work before we start getting fancy. If a customer knows exactly what they want, get them to the inventory as fast as possible.

The only part I would push back on a little is calling the people who don’t use filters low quality.

I see plenty of good buyers in the store who are not car people and are never going to learn how we organize inventory online. They just know what they need.

Three rows. Under $40k. Not 80k miles. Good in bad weather. Enough room for the family.

That’s plenty for a salesperson to start helping them in the showroom, so the website should probably be able to start there too.

Maybe the answer isn’t adding more tools. Maybe it’s making the first step easier.

If they know the stock number, get them there.

If they only know what they need, help them get to the right cars.

That feels a lot closer to how we actually sell cars in the store.

Your chart definitely made me rethink the order of this.

KennySmithAutoUnite · Sep 10, 2026

Vochi said:
The reason I made the post was because this past week my wife told me my daughter has been talking about getting her first car to drive back and forth to work. They are looking for a pink VW Beetle because she had seen a pink one and really liked it.

And my first thought was, “How do I explain to her that's not how you buy a car?”

Then I thought every car has a purpose for which it is better suited for, so I needed to try and understand which car best suits my daughters needs?

You’ve a 5 ton truck that’s great for hauling things but makes a terrible daily driver.

However some are great for towing. Some are great on the highway. Some are inexpensive to maintain. Some are great in snow or bad weather. Some have lots of room but aren't efficient.

But when I’m looking at cars online, all of that gets buried underneath make, model, year, trim, color, wheels, packages, etc.

So I started thinking about how I would build the experience if I were doing it specifically for my daughter.

First, make every car pink.

If she likes the pink Beetle, that's fine. But let's take color and styling out of the equation for a minute and figure out what the car actually needs to do for her.

Then ask her a series of simple questions about how she drives, what she needs, what matters to her, what she can afford, reliability, space, mileage, and so on.

At the end, instead of giving her 500 cars to look through, give her three vehicles that actually make sense for her.

Then explain why.

Maybe the Beetle is one of them. Maybe it isn't.

And if she really wants the Beetle, that's fine too. She can keep it in the comparison and see how it stacks up against the other choices.

Once she decides, then we get into inventory.

Now we're comparing the actual cars available locally with things like trim, mileage, price, accident/history information, maintenance, equipment, and everything else that matters when choosing between two otherwise similar vehicles.

And then the last step, she clicks a button and she has me contact the dealership so I can help her through the actual purchase.

And to be honest I’ve been so out of touch with the car market for so long I haven’t a clue what the best car for her would be and rather than just trust some guy at the dealership to tell me how the car on his lot is the best car for her, I figure I needed to understand what matters most to her, then figure out which car best fits those needs, then compare every car for sale in the area with what really matters (and it isn't price) and in the process I begin to wonder if dealerships websites might have missed the mark?

That example with your daughter is probably the best way to explain it.

If she walked into my store asking for a pink Beetle, I wouldn’t tell her she’s shopping wrong. I’d ask a few questions first. How far is she driving? What can she comfortably afford? How important is reliability? What does she actually need the car to do?

Then show her a few vehicles that make sense and explain why.

And I’d leave the Beetle in there too. If she understands the tradeoffs and still wants the pink Beetle, that’s fine. The point isn’t to choose for her. It’s to help her make a better decision.

I think that’s the piece we’re missing online.

Some customers know exactly what they want and should be able to get straight to inventory.

Others need help getting from “I need a car” to “these are the three that actually make sense for me.”

Once they make that decision, then we get into the actual inventory, mileage, condition, history, equipment, price and which store they want to deal with.

A good salesperson already does a lot of this in person. I think the website should be able to do some of it before the customer ever raises their hand.

JayKelly · Sep 10, 2026

When we bought our house it was a light tan color. My wife wanted to paint it. We went through the whole process. We and by we I mean I painted it white. It was a night and day improvement. I then asked my neighbor how he likes the color. He said it's great why do you ask? I said because you look at the outside of my house 50x more than I do....

So based upon the data, The Sherman Williams store should canvass the neighborhood look for odd colored housing and offer the husband a discount.

Asking a website to parse motivation is outside the realm of possibility.
The website is designed to capture intent.
Does your daughter want a pink car or a pink bug?
You would probably be better off buying a bug and having it wrapped vs trying to find a pink one.
The website is designed to convert your intent into a sale that is it.

Chris Apostalides · Sep 10, 2026

Kinda feel like one of these should be the AI slop emoji. :mad:

Doodoo emoji too harsh? Some people need that!

OR.... It could have been a plunger.

joe.pistell · Sep 10, 2026

KennySmithAutoUnite said:
The bigger thing for me is once they tell us something, don’t make them keep telling us again. That’s probably the part of the online experience I would fix first.

I see the logic Kenny, but to brag just a touch, two of my three patents touch on your topic, but I think there's much more opportunity higher in the funnel.

MOST shoppers that don't use the SRP filters
shoppers that don't use the save this VDP feature on VDPs

Meaning we've got friction in the shopping system that's ahead of some of the more sophisticated concepts that you're talking about.

I'm a visual thinker, I built this chart while I was working with Alex Snyder at Dealer.com. I was trying to communicate the spectrum of users and the time it takes to build experiences that satisfy the spectrum of users.

My message was that the overwhelming majority of users are low- and medium-quality and have low expectations of what they want from the internet. To execute and optimize the system for them first will still be used and appreciated by most-demanding users.

KennySmithAutoUnite · Sep 10, 2026

joe.pistell said:
Not all car shoppers think alike.

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Slide 3 is a secret weapon to see into the behaviors of shopping audience and this fires off creative, fresh, new merchandising experiences, all focused on the shoppers JTBD.

Joe, I think this is probably the part that makes the most sense to me.

We don’t treat every customer the same when they walk into the store.

Some show up with the stock number and basically want to know price, availability and how fast they can get it.

Others walk in and say I need something for three kids, I tow occasionally, or I need to stay around a certain payment. They’re still real buyers. They just need more help getting to the vehicle.

I think the website should be able to handle both without making either customer fight through a bunch of different tools.

If they know the car, get them there fast.

If they don’t, help them narrow it down.

The bigger thing for me is once they tell us something, don’t make them keep telling us again. That’s probably the part of the online experience I would fix first.

Alex Snyder · Sep 9, 2026

Vochi said:
Just to be clear, me challenging claims and reasoning you have a problem with?

Me: "I think the data says something different."

Me: "Here's why I interpret the customer journey differently."

Me: "How does this fit with the research?"

Me: "If AI can do X, why couldn't a dealer website do X?"

Me: "I think there's a missed opportunity here."

Those are arguments about the idea that I made, that I have a right to defend you have a problem?

Not one time did I go off topic or attack anyone....

However your sides only evidence was ""YOU said so" and when I pushed back your called names:

"keyboard warrior"

"our main troll of the day"

"I don't know if you're like this in real life"

"If you keep failing to listen..."

"Your an AI"

Those are direct comments about me, have nothing to do with the post I posted and you guys responded to me asking questions by calling me names, you don't see a problem with that?

Wow. Stuff like this puts you right back in troll status.

What you fail to see is the full history of your posts throughout DealerRefresh.

Alex Snyder · Sep 9, 2026

At the bottom of every post, you have some new ones to use. @Jeff Kershner and I found the AI responses annoying, so you can award them an AI Slop reaction when you feel the need. It won't change the post, but it may make you feel better. The AI Slop icon is a melting face because that's how we feel when we have to read your insanely long post that takes 15 paragraphs to get to the point.

Rolleyes has probably been needed for years.

We removed the poop. It was a little too harsh.

What are reactions on DealerRefresh?

Primarily, they are visual references for the author of the post that help them better understand how others feel about what they shared. It can help salespeople know they butted into a thread with a pitch that had nothing to do with the topic. Or it may help someone who uses AI to write their posts understand that we are on to them and that they can do better.

P.S. This post was not written by AI, but you can rolleyes it all day! :rolleyes:

Alex Snyder · Sep 9, 2026

Vochi said:
I started out years ago on an old SEO forum where we tested things and I was taught to keep it to the facts and never attack anyone.

Never let it get personal!

The idea is I post something I belive to be true and wait and see if the other side convinces me that what I am thinking is incorrect.

I've got no skin in the game, don't care one way or the other, just want to understand an idea and maybe test it.

To make sure I didn't miss anything I brake it down line by line, (for some reason I tend to skip lines and misunderstand things if I don't).

I take that line and try and understand it, look at the evidence, compare it with what the research I've done, and then decide whether I think the argument holds up.

I'm more than willing, I actually want to see evidence against my position because I don't want to waste time thinking about a stupid idea!

So when I go point by point, I'm not trying to be a troll or a keyboard warrior. That's just how I've learned to think through a problem.

I can see how it might feel combative from the other side.

But I'm genuinely interested in the subject, and I'm trying to figure out where the old assumptions about dealership websites hold up and where they don't.

I appreciate the response. In fact, it is my favorite thing I've ever read from you

Maybe a different approach for the future is worth trying? Perhaps with fewer words.

joe.pistell · Sep 9, 2026

Vochi said:
The dealership website is competing with the entire ecosystem the customer uses to make the decision.

Cars.com

CarGurus

Autotrader

Google

OEM sites

YouTube

Reddit

AI

Amazon

All of them have taken a piece of the car-buying journey away from the dealership.

"All of them have taken a piece of the car-buying journey away from the dealership."

huh? :oops:

Without KAYAK, shopping for a flight and a car rental would SUCK. Does UNited Airlines think KAYAK is taking away the travel shopping journey from the air traveler?

Dude, stick to code, that's your domain.

Alex Snyder · Sep 9, 2026

Vochi said:
I'm saying people walk into dealerships not knowing what car they want and I'm showing the data to support this and your saying that in the history of the world it has never happened and to even think it I must be an AI.

Your DealerRefresh tone has always elicited a combative response. I don't know if you're a keyboard warrior or like this in real life. I hope it's the latter. Truth is, your tone is turning you into our main troll of the day.

Yes, I think you're using AI to write your posts.

If you keep failing to listen to people with experience, you will fail to provide the kind of products you seem to be striving to build.

joe.pistell · Sep 9, 2026

Alex Snyder said:
Weeeeeell.... that assumes Cox actually merges the software and the core FullPath people hang around the FullPath product. Neither has been demonstrated in Cox's history.

No one knows this better than Alex. Hard stop.

joe.pistell · Sep 9, 2026

Vochi said:
Your saying we need to build for multiple types of customers!

UI architects are often mega-nerds and...
1. they build to solve their needs (i.e. they think all shoppers are power users).
2. are unaware of the spectrum of user's expectations.
3. have NO idea how complex car shopping is.
4. UNiversally agree that car dealers suck
5. Are unaware that shoppers find MORE value in talking to the dealer becuase...
6. They have no idea that the websites they build... suck.

Fact:

The survey is 5 yrs old and our sites are basically unchanged since DealerRefresh was a babe (read: Decades).

The "Dead Zone" and "The Jump", two of the most under explored areas in our space.

AutoMagic Labs is a merchandising research lab. We go deeeep into car shopping friction using 1st principles, then map it back to the UI.

DISC? :unclejoe:

Alex Snyder · Sep 9, 2026

dealerdata1 said:
But the Cox/Fullpath merger may change how that looks. Well on the front side at least, we all know the back side will just be spaghetti code nightmare crossing paths

Weeeeeell.... that assumes Cox actually merges the software and the core FullPath people hang around the FullPath product. Neither has been demonstrated in Cox's history.

Alex Snyder · Sep 9, 2026

Vochi said:
Unless I am reading this wrong the current industry data actually argues against what your saying, not saying how it is at your store, maybe your customers are more educated however, Cox Automotive's June 2026 research, developed with NIADA, found that 83% of independent-dealer buyers begin shopping without knowing which vehicle they want. They visited more than five websites and spent an average of 16.5 hours researching online.

Cox's 2025 Car Buyer Journey Study found essentially the same thing across the broader market: only 29% of buyers knew what vehicle they wanted when they started shopping, meaning 71% did not.

New Cox Automotive Research Reveals Independent Dealership Buyers Are Driven by Necessity—Not Aspiration - Cox Automotive Inc.

Cox Automotive Car Buyer Journey Study Finds Efficiency, Digital Tools and AI Drive Record Satisfaction - Cox Automotive Inc.

I agree that dealership websites are generally later in the funnel. In fact, Cox has shown dealer websites are particularly important toward the end of the online journey.

However “I'm ready to buy” and “I know exactly which vehicle I should buy.”

Seems to be more of what's happening??

A customer can be very close to buying while still trying to answer:

“I have three kids, what's the best fit for us?”

“I need something reliable for my daughter.”

“I tow a camper twice a year, but don't want to drive a truck every day.”

“I need to stay around $500 a month.”

That's exactly what a good salesperson does in the showroom: they start with the customer's objective and work backward toward the vehicle.

Cox's 2025 Drivers of Car Shopping Satisfaction research identified four major drivers of satisfaction:

knowledgeable/supportive staff

transparency

feeling well-informed

and being in control

Their top stress points included determining what the buyer could afford, trade-in, financing, F&I, and finalizing deal terms.

While I'm not saying your dealership isn't different however the data doesn't show customers only want price and availability, at least not at the average dealership.

It shows something closer to they want to make the right decision with as little friction and as possible.

Of course price and availability are critical once they've narrowed the vehicle down.

However I believe there is a huge opportunity: That the dealerships have skipped.

This sounds like an AI response. Which is annoying because they're so damn wordy... and completely lack instinct.

Let me start with what AI cannot account for: Experience.

Ask any car dealer how many customers have walked on the lot and said: "I have no idea what I want; since you're a car dealer, you can help me figure it out." Every customer either wants a brand, a model, something extremely specific, or is a get-me-done when they approach the dealership. When they're hitting the dealership website, they have landed there from a different research experience telling them that dealership has that car. That could be Cars.com, Autotrader, Google search, or AI pointing at that dealership. The direct traffic reason is usually a repeat customer or someone who has driven past the store. In both those cases, those are still customers who have a good idea of what they want.

Customers come to dealers with a mission. All others show up on Sunday.

Now, the studies you chose are gold to me. Cox Automotive Studies.

Your AI didn't realize that I used to work there. I spent nearly 8 years at Dealer.com building product. I was deep into how research is conducted.

News flash: we were always guessing at what motivated shoppers. We had no great intelligence. Cox liked to do surveys, but those had their flaws. Our bias was lead gen. It was the only thing dealers measured us on. We had zero insight into what happened after a lead was submitted. And no technology or study will ever tell you what psychology happens when a customer is sitting in front of a salesman. You have to be an asphalt-hitting commission-earner to get it.

Your first study was with NIADA about Independent shoppers. Well, that's a different animal entirely. Those people want a payment, and the actual car they want is secondary. They don't have the income or credit to qualify for a loan at a franchised store, so their options are limited, and they know it.

TLDR

"This ain't a bus stop" is what my first used car manager used to say in a gruff voice every time a customer was walking the lot without being upped. Those of us who have paid our bills on commissions from selling cars know that no customer comes to a dealership for the sheer joy of it (unless you're a Ferrari store). They come with a purpose, a mission, and the website is where they go to collect a little information to determine whether they're going to visit that dealership. It isn't a tool to decide whether they want an SUV or a Sedan.

Alex Snyder · Sep 9, 2026

joe.pistell said:
Alex, how automated is and can be your process? With the dealers I talk to, the great burden is time and tenacity required to work the lanes. Any visibility on this?

Time is always a burden! It is especially tough to mine service because the sales team is not wired to farm. They are hunters. Hunters want the kill today.

That is why we built VehicleLyfe as a farming tool that brings ready customers to the hunters. That is also why we don't stop at talking to customers only about their equity position. We help them schedule their next service, explore warranty options, and save money on car insurance. It keeps them open to trading/selling their car when they are ready. Everyone else stops when the customer says they are not interested in trading or selling their car today. We are built to farm forever and keep your customers loyal! The bonus is that they do eventually trade that car.

How?

100% automation, with a human able to jump in if they wish. The automations are dynamic emails and text messages written for each customer's specific situation. They drive the customer to their personalized VehicleLyfe page, where that customer can explore everything about their car. It is a very strong value to them. It's also a reason those customers keep working with your store. If they go down the street, they lose their VehicleLyfe platform/concierge for guidance on what to do next with their car.

So, VehicleLyfe helps dealers increase the number of cars they pull out of service for the used front line while getting the bonus of more warranty sales, more services scheduled, and extra revenue from insurance conversions with their partners + more on the horizon

joe.pistell · Sep 9, 2026

Not all car shoppers think alike.

1 of 4

2 of 4

3 of 4

4 of 4

Slide 3 is a secret weapon to see into the behaviors of shopping audience and this fires off creative, fresh, new merchandising experiences, all focused on the shoppers JTBD.

Tallcool1 · Sep 8, 2026

KennySmithAutoUnite said:
Looking at this from the store side, I wouldn’t solve it by having customers email or text pictures of their license and then relying on everyone to delete them afterward.

There are just too many places that image can end up. Inbox, text thread, employee phone, downloads folder, backups, forwarded messages, etc.

The cleanest process to me is a secure upload link. Customer gets the link, uploads the front and back of the DL, and it goes straight into a restricted customer record or document vault. The salesperson should be able to see that it was received without needing to download the actual image to their phone or computer.

I’d want the link to expire, access controlled by role, an audit trail showing who accessed it, and a clear retention/deletion policy.

I also wouldn’t really use HIPAA as the measuring stick here. If that customer’s information is tied into financing or leasing, I’d be looking at the FTC Safeguards Rule and making sure whatever process we’re using fits inside the dealership’s information security program.

Whether the upload piece comes from the CRM, DMS, Microsoft, Zoom or another vendor matters less to me than where the document actually ends up and who can touch it.

Dan’s secure-send option could absolutely work. My preference would just be to avoid creating another separate place for customer documents to live if we can send them directly into the system the store already controls.

Going paperless should mean fewer copies of sensitive information floating around the dealership, not taking something that used to sit in one locked file and spreading it across five different digital places.

You are describing exactly what I use. I referenced HIPPA Level Compliance because it is viewed as a much higher level of security than what a document of this nature would really require. The Documents loaded into the Portal arrive directly in the CRM attached to the Document Tab for the customer that the documents belong to. There is not an extra storage vault. The CRM Contact Record IS the storage vault.

joe.pistell · Sep 8, 2026

Alex Snyder said:
We can help you get there. And that would more than pay for VehicleLyfe

Alex, how automated is and can be your process? With the dealers I talk to, the great burden is time and tenacity required to work the lanes. Any visibility on this?

Alex Snyder · Sep 8, 2026

Be on the lookout for some highlights of this week's top posters and the top most liked member of the week in tomorrow's newsletter.

Alex Snyder · Sep 8, 2026

There’s no shortage of new AI tools hitting the car biz right now, but I’m more interested in what has produced a measurable improvement inside real dealerships.

Faster lead response?
Better VDP descriptions, merchandising, or photo/video workflow?
More effective service scheduling?
Less time spent on reporting?
Better website content, SEO, or social?

Bonus question: what sounded promising but turned out to add work, create risk, or produce no meaningful ROI?

Alex Snyder · Sep 8, 2026

I think most dealership website shoppers know EXACTLY what they're after on a dealership website. They're much further down the funnel than website companies give them credit for. This is why leads from dealership websites are "the best" and leads from OEMs are "the worst."

I also believe AI is going to move my opinion closer to fact.

Get out of cars for a minute. Amazon is a weird example as it serves as an Autotrader and a dealer website. But if you think of something like B&H or Best Buy you're usually going there for a specific product and may be tempted into something else by reviews. You already decided you wanted an Apple laptop or a new Android phone. Now, you're just checking inventory to see how soon you can get it.

Dealership customers only have two questions: How much is it? And how soon can I get it? (Service = how soon can I get my car in?)

Alex Snyder · Sep 8, 2026

vl_service-drive-1pct_1x1-square copy.png

We can help you get there. And that would more than pay for VehicleLyfe

Latest activity

Latest activity

​

I'm at Dealer.com talking to leaders about product design strategy, telling them why Digital Retailing was going to fail.​

Not all car shoppers think alike.​

​

Not all car shoppers think alike.​

Filter

I'm at Dealer.com talking to leaders about product design strategy, telling them why Digital Retailing was going to fail.

Not all car shoppers think alike.

Not all car shoppers think alike.