Thank you for all the insights Dan.

I have a tangential question related to GA4. We do have key events set up. Unfortunately, we are getting skewed data from our credit application key event. It will give me a count like 256 key events in a month, but we don't get that many credit apps each month.

Our website has a RouteOne credit application integration and it would appear that it counts a key event every time the credit app link is clicked, instead of every time there is a submission. I've been told that there may not be a great way to track these submissions (like add a "thank you for your credit app submission" page and count the key even on that page instead of the initial link click.) We are on the basic R1 plan so we don't get partial credit app captures which I think is an option.

I can track the standard lead submissions pretty easily and just not count the credit apps but that's not the best route either.

flosho said:

Our vehicles are on Edmunds, but we don't pay edmunds to list vehicles so it must be pulling the feed from one of the other sources (ATC is my guess).

We've just started with the survey and some other manual methods, tracking the 3rd party sales.

All of them have such ambiguous reporting with the way they attribute sales to their sites simply by removed inventory after some sort of action.

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Well, I evaluate 3rd party classifieds by three things:

Cost per VDP - what am I paying you to get a set of eyeballs on my car. We see anywhere from $0.54 to $1.38 and in the same month with each of them having the same inventory, you can challenge them on "why are you $X higher than ______?".

Leads and Solds - knowing that we are working all the leads the same way, in 90 days which source has the highest volume and close rate. What is my cost per lead, cost per sold and compare them.

Referrals - hopefully you have GA4 Key Events set up to get an idea of whose referral traffic not only spends the most time and whose most engaged but which source is really hammering those Key events.

Dan Sayer said:

I could have swore I found one of your BMWs by a VIN search on Edmunds and couldn't locate it on Cars or ATC by filtering to your zip, etc. I'm going to about-face on what I said then and you need to cut one of those to reduce your expenses. I'm just taking back over marketing for the group as we've had some leadership shift. I fired both Cars.com and AutoTrader and kept Cargurus and Carfax listings. In our markets (may be different in yours), those two had the highest rate of return in leads and VDPs and best engagement on site referrals. I don't need to stack more an more leads on a single VIN with our Used inventory being as thin as it is right now. I don't see any need for Used dealers to include traditional ads if they have a solid online strategy. Used has always been about merchandising, pricing, and VDPs.

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Our vehicles are on Edmunds, but we don't pay edmunds to list vehicles so it must be pulling the feed from one of the other sources (ATC is my guess).

We've just started with the survey and some other manual methods, tracking the 3rd party sales.

All of them have such ambiguous reporting with the way they attribute sales to their sites simply by removed inventory after some sort of action.

flosho said:

We don't use edmunds. We've got Cars and ATC along with Gurus, carfax and carsoup.

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I could have swore I found one of your BMWs by a VIN search on Edmunds and couldn't locate it on Cars or ATC by filtering to your zip, etc. I'm going to about-face on what I said then and you need to cut one of those to reduce your expenses. I'm just taking back over marketing for the group as we've had some leadership shift. I fired both Cars.com and AutoTrader and kept Cargurus and Carfax listings. In our markets (may be different in yours), those two had the highest rate of return in leads and VDPs and best engagement on site referrals. I don't need to stack more an more leads on a single VIN with our Used inventory being as thin as it is right now. I don't see any need for Used dealers to include traditional ads if they have a solid online strategy. Used has always been about merchandising, pricing, and VDPs.

flosho said:

Our average time to get a vehicle through mechanical recon is around 25+ days

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IMO this right here is your priority issue. I think the industry average for daily holding cost (dept expense - selling expense / units sold / 30 days) is about $50 which means you're hitting the market with a car that already racked up $1,250 in DHC but doesn't have a single eyeball on it yet. You said you were making changes in this area which is great. If you could get to 14 days that would have an incredible impact on your business in both net and turn.

Dan Sayer said:

All of my experience with used is within the franchise model and we have no luxury lines New and see very little used luxury so take this with a grain of salt. I think your per vehicle spend is currently too high at north of $400 per unit sold and your turn is too low at about 9 to 10 times a year.

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I appreciate the feedback Dan! We've never tracked our marketing spend per unit so that is a good nugget. It's also a bit humbling as I've been feeling like our turn is solid given our niche and the general structure of our dealership. We don't have fancy softwares to easily track recon times and turn ratio so it has to be done manually.

Dan Sayer said:

Average age is 45 to 60?

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So our marketing time for last year was around 37 days on average from website to sold. But our purchase >> sold timeline is closer to 90 days on average for all the vehicles we sold. Our average time to get a vehicle through mechanical recon is around 25+ days. There are some glacial changes being made to improve that timeline though.

Dan Sayer said:

Before you change anything, I'd look at making sure your sales process and lead response is solid to see if you can gain sales from process which would lower your per unit ad spend as well as increase turn.

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Well this is a constant battle. Our response times tend to be pretty good. Our follow up sales process can be lacking. We only have 2 full-time sales guys and 1 store manager that also does sales and then both of us in marketing are licensed as well but rarely handle sales.

Typically a good percentage of our monthly sales are from the low hanging fruit. Literally folks beating the door down to buy stuff. So once a lead goes cool after 5-7 days the follow up pattern is not what it should be.

Dan Sayer said:

If that is buttoned up, then may look at your pricing strategy for speed and turn. Lowering gross per to increase total gross is one strategy and you increase your turn thereby lowing your lot carrying costs.
The goal you laid out is actually lowering your turn to 8 to 9 times a year. I think your goal should be to sell 40 units from 40 on the lot and I assume you have a plan for acquisition to match the pace.

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I'll have to discuss this with the GM. Our pricing strategy is more for increased gross than turn. Part of that is as you can probably imagine our ability to process vehicles is not as fast as other dealers. With Euro/Imports and being independent we often have to wait a few days for parts from our suppliers. If I start pricing vehicles to sell fast, we'll end up with the accordion effect of selling a pile of vehicles and then dead period when our inventory drops and service has to catch up.

We simply do not have the capacity in service to get 40 units inspected and recon in a month. We would need at least another high level technician.

Dan Sayer said:

Your photos are legit by the way. Some of the best photo work I've seen. Jealous.

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Much appreciated. We've got a guy on staff that takes a lot of pride in the photos (and I photo some too). Our marketing of our vehicles has always been done to the nth degree. Photos, descriptions, accuracy, etc. Our goal is that the buyer has already fallen in love and purchased the vehicle in their heart before they get here.

Dan Sayer said:

How are you measuring the success of your 3rd parties? I'd boot Edmunds and include a major like Cars or AutoTrader. What type of return are you getting from the agency running your dig ad?

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We don't use edmunds. We've got Cars and ATC along with Gurus, carfax and carsoup. Measuring the success between all the sources is a constant battle. I monitor GA4 and our sales guys do an OK job of asking for the sources. We just implemented a customer survey that gets completed after paperwork is signed and has some attribution questions. Unfortunately about 50% contradict either what the source in our CRM says from internet leads. And they have only a 50% rate of obtaining these "required" surveys. The agency is seems to be netting us around 3-4 fb sales per month and sends us tons of traffic to our website. I'm not sure it's worth it. They are very responsive and are constantly tweaking things to make improvements. Still not sure its worth the money though.

Mail still has a place in the marketing mix. The blasts are good for some dealers, but only if there is a relevant event and a good call center for follow-ups.

I had to become a civilian (left the dealership as a customer) to better understand how visually powerful the right piece of mail is. Letters - no F'n way! Postcards with graphics - yes!

When I moved to Vermont, my mailbox was filled with dealers' offers. Each one made an impression, and some were even intriguing. That was 15 years ago, and I still remember those mailers. There is something much more memorable about a physical thing than a digital text or email.

All of my experience with used is within the franchise model and we have no luxury lines New and see very little used luxury so take this with a grain of salt. I think your per vehicle spend is currently too high at north of $400 per unit sold and your turn is too low at about 9 to 10 times a year. Average age is 45 to 60? Before you change anything, I'd look at making sure your sales process and lead response is solid to see if you can gain sales from process which would lower your per unit ad spend as well as increase turn. If that is buttoned up, then may look at your pricing strategy for speed and turn. Lowering gross per to increase total gross is one strategy and you increase your turn thereby lowing your lot carrying costs. The goal you laid out is actually lowering your turn to 8 to 9 times a year. I think your goal should be to sell 40 units from 40 on the lot and I assume you have a plan for acquisition to match the pace. Your photos are legit by the way. Some of the best photo work I've seen. Jealous. How are you measuring the success of your 3rd parties? I'd boot Edmunds and include a major like Cars or AutoTrader. What type of return are you getting from the agency running your dig ad?

Carsten said:

Most of the teams that I have been on have a retrospective for the end of a sprint. A sprint is an agile term for a set period that X amount of work needs to be completed by. The retrospective is run by a someone who takes a neutral role. I have been doing these retros for a year now for my team. We cover 4 items in 30 minutes meeting: doing good, do better, action items, and thanks.
We use a virtual white board since we're all remote but some post it notes and board to stick them on works too.

It's all no judgement and it took time to build trust, I'm leadership but I make the promise that all feedback is anonymous and will only relay issues that the C levels or people who can solve what we need will know. I only relay names when a team member should get recognition for a great idea.

The thanks - we call out the people who helped us or the whole team.
Action items - I use this corner for updates, information, and follow ups that my team has requested (lots of training is wanted).
Doing good - similar to the thanks but people call out areas that need improvement that are getting better and such.
Do Better - this is what is all bad really. Not enough X getting produced, dysfunctional communication issues, lack of training for target areas, and such.

I use the do better section to get input on all the things that my team wants. We also discuss that sometimes we need to pick up the slack for our side of the issue.

I love these because I believe that a leader is a coach. A coach on a sports team isn't the person on field but the person who steps up to take the blame when the team fails and the one who praises those who shine. A coach wins because his team wins.

I wonder ... if something like this can't be used about now. You can't carry the load yourself. You need the team to buy in and buying in means being invested and seeing that the team's voice is heard and is being acted upon.

Nobody on my team has ever thrown out an idea that was ridiculous like 3 day work weeks and such. We are all professionals, get paid as a professional, and we know that we should be giving our 40 hours fully to our jobs (actually 70% is realistic).

I hope this gives you some ideas!

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4 Items in 30 minutes. I love this!

This is a good post @Carsten .

BillVaughnAlWestNissan said:

It seemed like we had some momentum going to start the month, but we've stalled out the last two days.

I made some pricing adjustments today and starting a new campaign for new cars. Hoping that can provide a spark.

It may have partly been because it was slow, but today felt like the first "normal" day that I've had since I've been here. Either getting settled in or I'm just not doing enough. Ha.

Putting the final touches on our new overlay. Hoping to have that done soon. I know that may sound small to some, but something every customer will be looking at I take pretty seriously.

Staff seems to be finding a groove and is understanding the change in expectations. They seem more comfortable with it now. It's possible that selling cars was helped fix that so it could only be temporary. We will see if the morale dips again if we continue to have a slow stretch.

I continue to work on no cost ways of attracting organic activity (i.e. blog posts, GBP posts, etc.). Also still waiting for our Bing Places for Business profile to be approved and activated. Dealers, do not underestimate Bing. You can easily sync your Bing and GBP profiles.

Also still in the process of making some minor tweaks to our website.

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Gross Profit fixes all problems!! I am sure that getting busy and selling some cars helped as much as anything.

It is SO hard to teach and change processes when business is slow. When it is busy, there are teaching opportunities around every corner.

I am enjoying this thread Bill. I admire your willingness to just put it all out there.

Cool offer - I think a lot of dealerships like to have their warranty work done in the store. Have you connected with any dealerships local to you?

bironwarner said:

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Should we use AI for this like you did?

We've had a few clients go through the exact same situation. I would suggest video verification but like you said, you have to hustle to get everything done in the time frame they provided and it could still be rejected. A few pointers....

I would do this early in the morning because we found out you can't put people's faces in the video.
Don't swivel around or pan the camera too fast.
Plan your route to keep the recording as short as possible.

Good luck!

BillVaughnAlWestNissan said:

Daily? WOW.

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definitely not every car, I guess for us it's just dependent on the market changes for that car.

BillVaughnAlWestNissan said:

Used tags will also have a brief list of hot button items.

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Man, that would be a full time job replacing those pricing sheets on used. Prices get changed daily sometimes.

ing and clapping for prices on your products!

1 Agreed.
2. Not agreed with sharing hire/fire decision making. You have a small team, they are looking to you to make them successful. If your payplan is team oriented, then this happens organically: "we ARE, in fact, a team fighting in the trenches together"
3. Solid leadership to me.

Recapping your talking points:
1. I decided not to allow a salesperson that put in their notice to stay.
2. We sat down as a team and made the decision whether or not to replace this person together
3. I also promised that anyone providing notice would not be let go immediately and that they would be able to see through their notice.

The decision to have the outgoing Sales Person leave immediately was a good one. It isn't a reflection of who you are but more so a reflection of WHERE you are. If it were 6 months from now your decision would be different and I am certain you made that clear to the remaining staff members.

Including the staff in the decision to replace or not is likely a good "culture" decision as long as the three remaining are actually trying to embrace the direction you are trying to take the business. I am guessing that they are and that is the reason you elected to ask their opinion. If you have three sales people that understand and can execute the processes then training a new hire down the road will be much easier.

I am neutral on the third one. I really don't know if someone is more or less likely to give notice. I think it was a good idea to have that talk. I just don't know the answer to your question Bill.

Jim touched so many lives in the Retail Automotive Industry.

The first time I met Jim was at an NADA Convention. I was a young CFO for a dealer group but had come up through the Sales Side of the business. I would always try to sneak into a couple of Sales related Education Sessions because the ones geared toward me were usually so damn boring that it could be hard to stay awake. I got into the room early and sat toward the front of the room. Jim approached me, introduced himself, and asked what I was expecting from the upcoming session. I explained my situation and he laughed his ass off that I had snuck into his session to escape the boredom for an hour! Anyway, he sat with me and visited for nearly an hour.

Jim was legendary in the Industry, but he was also a really good guy.

He is going to be missed by many.

Jim Ziegler's Family said:

With profound sadness, we share the passing of James A. Ziegler—Jim, the Alpha Dawg, a pioneer, mentor, and leader in the automotive industry. Jim passed away peacefully at home, surrounded by his beloved Debbie and family.
For decades, Jim’s voice shaped the way dealerships operated, how sales teams performed, and how professionals across the industry approached success. He didn’t just teach—he transformed. He didn’t just speak—he inspired. His passion, his fire, and his unwavering belief in people set him apart as one of the most influential figures in automotive.
Jim built a legacy that will never fade. His presence, his knowledge, and his impact stretched across generations. If you ever had the opportunity to hear him speak, work with him, or learn from him, you knew you were experiencing something rare—something unforgettable.
We invite all who knew and respected Jim to join us in honoring his life and the impact he made:

Visitation: Thursday, March 6, 6:00 - 8:00 PM

Funeral Service: Friday, March 7, 2:00 PM

Location: Memorial Park South Funeral Home, 4121 Falcon Pkwy, Flowery Branch, GA 30542
For those traveling, Hampton Inn Braselton on Golf Club Drive is a good option for accommodations.
Jim always believed in things that endured. In his honor, Ms. Debbie is creating a garden in their backyard to celebrate his life and legacy. Flowers are welcome, but for those who wish to contribute to this lasting tribute, outdoor potted flowering plants are also a meaningful option. A personal favorite florist of the family is Lovin Florist in Braselton, Georgia.
Jim may no longer be with us, but his influence, his lessons, and his impact will never leave us. His voice may be quiet now, but his words will be carried forward by the countless people whose lives he touched.
Please keep Debbie and the Ziegler family in your thoughts. And as we come together to honor Jim, let’s remember—he built something that will last far beyond his time.

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Those of us who knew Jim are sad to hear this news. We knew it was coming, but it is still a tough one to hear. RIP Jim - you taught us a ton!

Here is the Facebook Post if you wish to leave a comment for his family: Jim Ziegler- Car Guy

sukoseo said:

SEO on your VDP is a lost cause and mostly due to them not ranking to begin with, as mentioned here. Just write the descriptions to help the user understand features, etc. etc. Leave SEO to the static pages.

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Thank you! I had heard that before, but it was a long time ago. So I figured I'd ask. Thanks for clarifying!

Bill, you know that changing operations is easier than changing ppl that hate change.

Nothing makes my blood boil more than 'passive aggressive' stalkers that are waiting for a new leader to make a mistake then use it to 'divide and conquer' the team.